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Linus torvalds on security

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Re: Linus torvalds on security

#91

Post by VMG »

javert wrote: post #75
akira2501 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem is that you honestly believe that he was genuinely telling people that they should die. It's an expression, and not terribly uncommon, either.

Honestly, I've never heard that kind of thing (as in "kill yourself" not "you're a moron" - that one is par for the course among kernel hackers) said outside of Linus Torvalds, Ulrich Drepper maybe, and comedians and the like that are in an explicitly comedic situation. I realize he doesn't mean it literally. Anyway, this is just to clarify, not to argue further.

In case you are wondering: if somebody tells you to "go fuck yourself" he doesn't literally want you to do that.

Re: Linus torvalds on security

#92

Post by ajb »

dirtyaura wrote: post #7
javert wrote: post #2

... please just kill yourself now I don't think someone who actually knows what it's like to experience suicidal thoughts would ever say something like that to people in a technical/professional context. There is something to be said for the "tough love" Linux culture, but IMO, language as extreme as what I just quoted is just not acceptable. For me, this is crossing the line from "Linus has an interesting and entert…

I suppose it's more a cultural issue - no Finn would read that post as seriously as you did. Many would consider it hilarious. It's quite typical in informal Finnish way of speaking to use "dark" metaphors, and granted they come out a little bit clumsy in English, but I know a lot of Finnish coders who express themselves with similar language that Torvalds does. I remember a few incidents from my Nokia career where t…

When I see Torvalds say these things in a video - the one where he slags off subversion being the famous example - it's obvious to me that he's not being serious. But it seems much more arrogant, threatening even, written down, without the other cues.

Re: Linus torvalds on security

#93

Post by justncase80 »

viraptor wrote: post #27

It really depends on the context / configuration (or at least should depend on). Imagine a host available to public at a library. Considering that people can come there to print out some sensitive documents, you don't want to allow normal users to change printer settings. Someone could remove the default one and set up a tunnel through his own host, capturing all documents on the wire before they hit the printer. Ver…

In cases like this, couldn't the library administrator just remove the rights for all their machines? Create a user account with less privileges than a normal user and let patrons use that.

Re: Linus torvalds on security

#94

Post by vacri »

javert wrote: post #38
tygorius wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Been there, done that, got the meds. It taught me the valuable distinction between normal mood swings and out-of-whack brain chemistry. Seriously, if you have a strong bout of suicidal thoughts in reaction to flippant remarks such at Torvalds's then you need to bring this up to a mental health professional because your current coping mechanism isn't working . If you're merely tut-tutting with disapproval however I si…

Your speculation on and advice about my mental health is rude and insulting. I'm not merely "tut-tutting". I don't think telling people to commit suicide because of a legitimate technical disagrement or hurdle is acceptable. If you disagree, put up a reasoned argument or shut up.

Your speculation on and advice about my mental health is rude and insulting.

vs

For me, this is crossing the line from "Linus has an interesting and entertaining character" to "this person seems to be mentally disturbed."

That's a nice trick you have there, where you're allowed to be rude and insulting about a person's mental state while taking offense at anyone doing the same to you.

You strike me as the kind of person who chooses to take offense at things.

Re: Linus torvalds on security

#95

Post by vacri »

javert wrote: post #39
batista wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not supposed to elicit laughs; it's supposed to emphasize his point. Of course, I know that. Not all jokes are there to elicit laughs --unless one is a clown or a stand-up comedian. It's a joke in the sense that it's not meant seriously. As, in, if somebody DID kill himself following his advice, Linus would be genuinely upset, sad, and most of all surprised.

You need to look up the definition of "joke" before you insult Americans in general and call them "9 year olds" based on an incorrect usage of that term. Telling someone to commit suicide, even if not meant literally, because of a technical disagreement, should not be (in my opinion) considered acceptable in any culture. Unless it's just an established colloquialism of everyday speech, as maybe it is for Finns. I don…

He was speaking on his personal blog, in a nondirected fashion. He was not directing the comment at anyone in particular, nor was in in technical debate in an appropriate forum.

As someone who has depression and a past history of suicidal thoughts, you insult me by suggesting I can't tell the difference between a turn of phrase and someone genuinely wishing I was dead.

Re: Linus torvalds on security

#96

Post by vacri »

mongol wrote: post #10
javert wrote: post #2

... please just kill yourself now I don't think someone who actually knows what it's like to experience suicidal thoughts would ever say something like that to people in a technical/professional context. There is something to be said for the "tough love" Linux culture, but IMO, language as extreme as what I just quoted is just not acceptable. For me, this is crossing the line from "Linus has an interesting and entert…

Yes I agree. And it is like every other quote from Linus contains similar exaggregations. I think it is his biggest weakness.

The stuff people point at and post is highly selected.

Try reading further down the page - there are dozens of inoffensive posts by Torvalds.

There's been posts here on HN doing just what you're saying "Look, a quote from Torvalds where he's abrasive"... then people look back at the posting history where he's explaining his point, and he's had dozens of polite comments before reaching breaking point.

So yeah - try reading down the page further before you claim half of what he says is like this.

Re: Linus torvalds on security

#97

Post by trevi »

He is spot on, but I find (and always found) his wording way too aggressive. Makes it kind of hard to have a constructive discussion on the topic, which by the way really needs such discussion.

Re: Linus torvalds on security

#98

Post by vacri »

jnazario wrote: post #48

every now and then linus peeks in at what passes for linux, freaks out, gets pissed off at the state of things, vents, and everyone chimes in. so i'll chime in. this is what you get when you are laissez-faire about how things operate in the land you helped create and ignore issues (via guidance and suggestions) for years on end. this happened with wifi some years ago, too, and didn't get attention until linus got a l…

Why is a kernel dictator responsible for the userspace? what genuine authority does Torvalds have over gnome or kde?

It's not Torvalds' responsibility, implied or otherwise, to manage what kind of password userspace requires for setting config settings.

Re: Linus torvalds on security

#99

Post by mbell »

beatle wrote: post #19
alextgordon wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you may have misread. > I first spent weeks arguing on a bugzilla that the security policy of requiring the root password for changing the timezone The time zone is a completely presentational setting, something that users can be expected to want to change every so often. And it has no relation to timestamps.

Changing time zones can fuck up a server application.

What on earth are you doing using time zones in a server application? Time zone is purely presentation, you should be storing and calculating everything in UTC and only converting to time zone for presentation to a user based on that user's time zone (either via a user defined setting for your application or based on the current time zone setting of a user's system). You should never, ever, ever use the server's time zone to determine presentation to a user (or for anything really).

Re: Linus torvalds on security

#100

Post by vacri »

16s wrote: post #54
donniezazen wrote: post #49

I find it funny, how effortlessly Linus trashes people.

Seems to be part of the free OS culture. Everyone trashes someone. Theo and the OpenBSD devs think Linux is garbage written by people who don't understnd Unix. All of the free OS guys have someone they make fun of regularly. It's a bit silly I think, but that's just how it is. "Look at them, they use C++... ha ha ha idiots. Oh look at them, they use Linux... utter and complete bloated garbage compared to real Unix."…

Because the paid-for consumer OS culture don't have their own punching-bag memes? Apple's 'smug field'? Windows 'malware'? Each of these has large contigents that mock others, and frequently with quite some disdain. It's far from unique to FOSS.
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