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Linus torvalds on security

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Re: Linus torvalds on security

#71

Post by ojilles »

waxjar wrote: post #63
thetroll wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

same here. Linus is a man with strong opinions, so i guess the kind of language he uses helps reflects that. and i find it funny that people get upset so much over it. some "political correctness" crap. look, you don't control what other people say or does, but you can control how that affects you. if you're going to seriously get upset about someone telling you to "kill yourself", you should get yourself a psychiatr…

I find that a weak excuse. If you were to dine in an expensive restaurant, where one of their guests talked really loudly on his cell phone all night, disturbing the other guests, you wouldn't expect the waiter to tell you to "just ignore it" or "just don't be disturbed". At least I wouldn't.

There is a difference between public and private spaces.

Re: Linus torvalds on security

#72

Post by javert »

beedogs wrote: post #68
icebraining wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why are you talking about professional context on a story about a post in a personal profile on a social network?

Apparently people in the public eye are not allowed to have personal opinions.

Come on guys, this was fully intended to be a public statement and I think there are hundreds of comments on it (too lazy to check now).

Re: Linus torvalds on security

#73

Post by javert »

batista wrote: post #46
javert wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're talking about a totally different context than I am.

Not sure. You wrote "I've never seen the kind of behavior Linus is famous for on the part of anyone besides Europeans.", which in the context of the threads, means things like him saying "kill yourself". Well, those guys, all non Europeans and most Americans, are some random and well known examples of similar --if not identical-- harsh talk as joke/commentary.

My point is that these OpenSUSE guys, software developers, created a free distribution (some were employed by SUSE no doubt and some not, doesn't matter), and Linus shows his thanks this way?

I'm actually talking specifically about the context of kernel hacking. I always thought it was just the "kernel hacker culture" and it never occured to me to see it along geographical lines until someone pointed out that it's apparently commonly accepted in Finland to talk to people this way in a professional context.

Now, of COURSE comedians and schoolyard bullies and people like that say all kinds of nasty shit, all over the world. I really had the Linux kernel hacking community in mind, which I follow somewhat, but I assumed it was clear from context that I was talking about "software development" at least.

Re: Linus torvalds on security

#74

Post by javert »

tygorius wrote: post #56
javert wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your speculation on and advice about my mental health is rude and insulting. I'm not merely "tut-tutting". I don't think telling people to commit suicide because of a legitimate technical disagrement or hurdle is acceptable. If you disagree, put up a reasoned argument or shut up.

Sorry. No aspersions on your mental health were intended. I was using "you" in the general, hypothetical sense. You and I are not the only ones reading this thread. One of the things I learned from depression was that one (not "you") could intellectually realize that a stimulus was trivial and yet still have a near-overpowering emotional response. People in such a situation would be well advised to deal with the unde…

I came back to apologize for telling you to "shut up." I don't think it was worded too too rudely and necessarily requires an apology, but that's not my style, either. I just lost a ton of karma on this (not that that matters, but it stings a bit!) and felt like a lot of people were attacking me on disingenuous grounds. Anyway, I do appreciate the apology, so thank you!

Your point about depression is actually quite interesting. My personal belief is that your emotions reflect the mental content of your mind. So if something is making you depressed, you need to think about what's wrong with the ideas you hold that's causing you to be depressed, and change your ideas. It seems to me that if you just treat it with medicine, the underlying wrong ideas will potentially linger. (OTOH, I've heard it said that taking the medicine gives you strength to confront the things that are bothering you when you lack it.)

FWIW, I haven't been able to confirm or deny my belief, but I suspect it's basically correct, but that not all people can address the intellectual disconnects they have in all situations without some form of outside help.

Re: Linus torvalds on security

#75

Post by javert »

akira2501 wrote: post #44
javert wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your speculation on and advice about my mental health is rude and insulting. I'm not merely "tut-tutting". I don't think telling people to commit suicide because of a legitimate technical disagrement or hurdle is acceptable. If you disagree, put up a reasoned argument or shut up.

I think the problem is that you honestly believe that he was genuinely telling people that they should die. It's an expression, and not terribly uncommon, either.

Honestly, I've never heard that kind of thing (as in "kill yourself" not "you're a moron" - that one is par for the course among kernel hackers) said outside of Linus Torvalds, Ulrich Drepper maybe, and comedians and the like that are in an explicitly comedic situation. I realize he doesn't mean it literally. Anyway, this is just to clarify, not to argue further.

Re: Linus torvalds on security

#76

Post by donald_draper »

batista wrote: post #61
javert wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need to look up the definition of "joke" before you insult Americans in general and call them "9 year olds" based on an incorrect usage of that term. Telling someone to commit suicide, even if not meant literally, because of a technical disagreement, should not be (in my opinion) considered acceptable in any culture. Unless it's just an established colloquialism of everyday speech, as maybe it is for Finns. I don…

You need to look up the definition of "joke" before you insult Americans in general and call them "9 year olds" based on an incorrect usage of that term. I did. Have you? Definition #2 from Mirriam-Webster: "something not to be taken seriously". Telling someone to commit suicide, even if not meant literally, because of a technical disagreement, should not be (in my opinion) considered acceptable in any culture. You k…

People should actually cheer to this expression of the open source spirit. Like in 'if you find a bug, fix it', he proposes to you to kill yourself if you cause one. Nothing special. Off course, if this were corporate software, they would send somebody to your house to kill you, which might be more convenient.

Re: Linus torvalds on security

#77

Post by javert »

icebraining wrote: post #53
javert wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a connection to reality. What Linus is saying is: if you don't agree with me, you're an incompetent developer, get out of the way and shut up, and I don't want to hear any counter-argument. It's a means of quality enforcement, to some degree. OK. But there is a point where it goes too far. I don't insist on political correctness. I haven't complained about Linus' normal insults but he's telling people to kil…

You should read Your Mother's Tongue: Book of European Invective. You'd be surprised (and in your case, probably shocked) at what people call each other without any intention of actually insulting them. For example, here in Portugal and in informal situations, it's reasonably common for a person to use an expression that essentially calls their mother a whore because they made something that somewhat annoyed you. Of…

Thanks. I may actually read that, because it's clear to me that a lot of things really aggravate me that don't aggravate a lot of other people in the FOSS world, and if I want to get along, I'd better get over it. (Though that doesn't mean I will condone it or do it myself.)

Re: Linus torvalds on security

#78

Post by javert »

batista wrote: post #61
javert wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need to look up the definition of "joke" before you insult Americans in general and call them "9 year olds" based on an incorrect usage of that term. Telling someone to commit suicide, even if not meant literally, because of a technical disagreement, should not be (in my opinion) considered acceptable in any culture. Unless it's just an established colloquialism of everyday speech, as maybe it is for Finns. I don…

You need to look up the definition of "joke" before you insult Americans in general and call them "9 year olds" based on an incorrect usage of that term. I did. Have you? Definition #2 from Mirriam-Webster: "something not to be taken seriously". Telling someone to commit suicide, even if not meant literally, because of a technical disagreement, should not be (in my opinion) considered acceptable in any culture. You k…

I just can't believe that Linus' comment was made to be entertaining or is seen to be entertaining. The point of this kind of invective, as far as I understand, is for Linus to say:

"Shut up and go away, I don't want to hear any rebuttal or any other point of view, because I have waaaay more experience than you do, I know that I'm right, and I don't have time for it."

Basically: he's asserting his right as the "benevolent dictator" of Linux.

Which is fine by me until it goes so far as telling people to kill themselves. That seems unnecessarily and extremely harsh to me (guess it's just an American thing, maybe...), and it seems like something that would be said by a pure psychopath (or a comedian, or a young schoolyard bully).

I understand he doesn't mean "kill yourself" literally, of course.

Though I've always assumed that when he calls people morons, braindead, idiots, etc., he really means those things. Right? Although I can tolerate those things just fine, I'd be really interested to learn if other people interpret those things as not meant literally.

Re: Linus torvalds on security

#79

Post by simonh »

javert wrote: post #2

... please just kill yourself now I don't think someone who actually knows what it's like to experience suicidal thoughts would ever say something like that to people in a technical/professional context. There is something to be said for the "tough love" Linux culture, but IMO, language as extreme as what I just quoted is just not acceptable. For me, this is crossing the line from "Linus has an interesting and entert…

"Linus Torvalds arrested for Suse security death threats".

Every time I think of travelling to America again, I read something like this and think... nope, not worth it.

Re: Linus torvalds on security

#80

Post by fckin »

batista wrote: post #61
javert wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need to look up the definition of "joke" before you insult Americans in general and call them "9 year olds" based on an incorrect usage of that term. Telling someone to commit suicide, even if not meant literally, because of a technical disagreement, should not be (in my opinion) considered acceptable in any culture. Unless it's just an established colloquialism of everyday speech, as maybe it is for Finns. I don…

You need to look up the definition of "joke" before you insult Americans in general and call them "9 year olds" based on an incorrect usage of that term. I did. Have you? Definition #2 from Mirriam-Webster: "something not to be taken seriously". Telling someone to commit suicide, even if not meant literally, because of a technical disagreement, should not be (in my opinion) considered acceptable in any culture. You k…

Cool. I hope your Paki dyke mom dies of AIDS! LOL, am I right?
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