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Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South Korea

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41–50 of 114 posts

Re: Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South Korea

#41
post #15
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

This logic makes no sense. What about no smoking spaces? Basically every nation implements these and it benefits everyone (including smokers, more reasons to quit). Are you going to try and tell me "no smoking in front of the building" is the new apartheid? Smoking and parenthood are lifestyle choices, which have consequences. Skin color is not, and shouldn't. It is not relevant to the conversation.

Childfree is a lifestyle choice which must be taxed (and already is in some countries like Germany). Parenthood is a matter of survival of our species and our economy.

Re: Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South Korea

#42

This sort of ageism is bikeshedding a nothingburger. The real issue is the shunning, misery, suffering, starvation, and suicides of the elderly.

> This sort of ageism is bikeshedding a nothingburger.

There is something funny about this sentence. Ageism, bikeshedding and nothingburger all sound like relatively new and currently popular words. Using them all at once kind of turns it into a caricature, but maybe that was the point.

Re: Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South Korea

#43

Here's a thought. Allow kids, but require that they have manners and are well behaved. I love kids and have no problems with them, but hate kids that have no manners and are not well behaved because the parents are not doing their job. The same is true with dogs. Both take work, but as a parent and a dog owner those are part of your job.

We could allow for social evictions. Include protections for protected classes.

Re: Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South Korea

#44

Here's a thought. Allow kids, but require that they have manners and are well behaved. I love kids and have no problems with them, but hate kids that have no manners and are not well behaved because the parents are not doing their job. The same is true with dogs. Both take work, but as a parent and a dog owner those are part of your job.

How would you enforce that requirement?

Re: Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South Korea

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the people arguing for white-only spaces said whites caused less property damage than certain other races.

And that’s related how? Choosing to have a kid (or a pet) is a choice, while race isn’t. Seems to me that’s a pretty major distinction.

Choosing to have a kid is a choice of the parents, not the child. You're forgetting the child is also a person, one as deserving of the same civil rights as anyone else, at least where we can give them without causing harm to the child.

Re: Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South Korea

#46
post #15
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

This logic makes no sense. What about no smoking spaces? Basically every nation implements these and it benefits everyone (including smokers, more reasons to quit). Are you going to try and tell me "no smoking in front of the building" is the new apartheid? Smoking and parenthood are lifestyle choices, which have consequences. Skin color is not, and shouldn't. It is not relevant to the conversation.

Parenthood isn't always a lifestyle decision and being a child certainly never is.

Re: Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South Korea

#47

Personally I've found the presence of children in restaurants can be totally fine depending on the parents. If they keep a handle on them they're no more unpleasant than an adult. If they're trashy people who let their kids scream and carry on it's a nightmare. I haven't lived in SK but I'm surprised there are many people who would let their kids be disruptive.

It's optimistic to assume parents have direct control over whether their kids are screaming or not.

Re: Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South Korea

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An opinion, to be sure, but not the only one. If child free, you’re only vested in whatever it takes to get you to the grave comfortably, demographically speaking (and there are already 8 billion people on the planet, headed to 10 billion). Another opinion is that children are a luxury good, not a necessity.

That's not a pro-social attitude.

I’m happy to discuss what “pro social” means in another thread to prevent derailing this one, to be polite to the forum. My thoughts on the idea are that it means taking care of everyone existing first at a reasonable level of quality, before encouraging more folks to have kids with social or economic incentives because the economic pyramid scheme is at risk [1].

If you have the resources, the support network, and the emotional aptitude, by all means, invest in having children. Even if you don’t enjoy the experience (the data shows a significant percentage of parents do not), society gets them as taxpayers eventually. But if you don’t, don’t. The data shows that if unintended pregnancies are avoided (about 40% globally annually, per the Guttmacher Institute and the UN) [2], the fertility rate will settle someone between 50-75% of replacement rate (2.1).

TLDR Optimize for your own happiness (“do no harm but take no shit”). Ignore peer and societal pressure. If that means not having kids, and that causes society challenges, that’s a society problem to solve, versus dumping that externality and reduction of agency, freedom, and options on individuals.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36468226

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36127247

Re: Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South Korea

#49
You cannot understand the declining fertility rates worldwide unless you understand and internalize this graph: https://ourworldindata.org/parents-time-with-kids

Being a parent today is substantially more demanding than it was in the past and this has very wide-raning consequences:

1. While the monetary demands have increased, they are not a huge factor. That's why in places with generous subsidies and cash transfers, the impact on fertility has been positive, but pretty limited.

2. There's a backlash against "wokeness" and women's rights. being a father was easy and spending your nights at the bar with your buddies was perfectly socially acceptable. The demands on being a "good" father today have risen substantially, more so than for women, and some men cannot bear this new burden. But rather than admit weakness they try to point the blame on women who demand the burden be spread equally.

3. People have pets instead of kids. The money, care and attention your average tech worker's dog or cat receives today is probably the same as the average person devoted to their kids in the 50s. That is to say, people's preference for taking care of living being and companionship has not changed much, but many people have been "priced out" because of the new demands. In other words, many of the people you see with pets but no kids today (or pets and one kid) would have been perfectly capable and happy with kids in the past.

If you believe this, as I do, than it's bad news because there's nothing easy on the horizon that can fix this. Cash transfers and subsidies help a little. Support from companies for parental leave help a little. Humanoid house robots could help a lot (imagine a $30k TeslaBot that can do all your housework, no more cleaning, garbage, cooking, tidying, laundry or yardwork), but then the demands for childcare could just take this into account and keep increasing.

Re: Doubts creep in about wisdom of ‘no-kids zones’ in South Korea

#50
In the (very limited) time I've spent in Korea, I got the suspicion that the low birth rate may also be related to the increasing divergence between the life expectations of younger women and the gender norms of Korean society which make 1950s USA look like a woke paradise in comparison.
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