Declassified U.S. report on origins of Covid-19 virus [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: Declassified U.S. report on origins of Covid-19 virus [pdf]

#161

Post by Klinky » Sat, Jun 24, 2023, 4:16 PM UTC

synetic wrote: post #145

Klinky wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A public statement is for the public, kooks included, and when some of those kooks are political figures that makes it even more reasonable to make such a statement.

Apparently it was written with kooks in mind. I’d guess you are right in that they are writing for Congressmen. There are kooks there. Overall, I think it a bad idea for intelligence agencies to write public statements to combat nutty ideas (unless such ideas are held by Congressmen).

Okay, so I guess that means you're now okay with their public statements.

Re: Declassified U.S. report on origins of Covid-19 virus [pdf]

#162

Post by kcplate » Sat, Jun 24, 2023, 4:28 PM UTC

Klinky wrote: post #158

kcplate wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s the thing, I am certainly interested if governments are engineering a possible plague and accidentally this plague leaked out and killed many. That has a widespread obvious general interest to the public. What I don’t understand is why laypeople with no connection to the possible groups and government supposedly involved would be motivated to take up the cause against the speculation. What motivates them? I do…

I literally said speculate all you want. Just don't expect your speculation to be magically accepted as truth when that's not what the evidence supports. Have you spoken about your concerns with your congresspersons & asked them to support bans on risky gain-of-function research? That'd be something tangible you could do than just speculating on top of speculation.

Why deflect here? What is your motivation to discount and argue against using circumstantial evidence to draw a conclusion possibility when neither side of the debate has the definitive evidence that you seek?

Does it somehow bother your politics in some way? Are you just being a contrarian for contrary sake? Your desire for evidential purity in a situation where you are most likely not involved is really strange. I am just interested in why that is. What is motivating you here? Please articulate it.

Re: Declassified U.S. report on origins of Covid-19 virus [pdf]

#163

Post by jaybrendansmith » Sat, Jun 24, 2023, 4:47 PM UTC

D13Fd wrote: post #149

rich_sasha wrote: post #122

As a non-American, I find it frustrating how American partisanship hijacked this discussion. Forget Republicans and Democrats. A priori, a lab leak, at least accidental,.is a totally plausible hypothesis. Evidence is hard to find either way so who knows. But then these became shibboleths for American polarisation and you can't say "lab leak" without being labelled a white supremacist. I'm not saying it did or did not…

I agree with all that. But there is also the question: why should we care? What difference does it make now?

It does matter. Because if it came from a lab, it means the restrictions and regulations surrounding that lab were completely insufficient to contain the leak. It means that we are all under a constant threat that other, worse leaks, will happen, and that millions have died and a good percentage of the GDP of the entire world was lost due to gain of function experiments done without enough precaution. It deeply matters, and if we are adults we need to handle this with investigations and preventative action plans and a global regulatory framework.

Re: Declassified U.S. report on origins of Covid-19 virus [pdf]

#164

Post by Klinky » Sat, Jun 24, 2023, 4:56 PM UTC

kcplate wrote: post #162

Klinky wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I literally said speculate all you want. Just don't expect your speculation to be magically accepted as truth when that's not what the evidence supports. Have you spoken about your concerns with your congresspersons & asked them to support bans on risky gain-of-function research? That'd be something tangible you could do than just speculating on top of speculation.

Why deflect here? What is your motivation to discount and argue against using circumstantial evidence to draw a conclusion possibility when neither side of the debate has the definitive evidence that you seek? Does it somehow bother your politics in some way? Are you just being a contrarian for contrary sake? Your desire for evidential purity in a situation where you are most likely not involved is really strange. I…

> discount and argue against using circumstantial evidence

Didn't discount or argue against using circumstantial evidence, nor did I argue against speculating. I am stating the evidence only supports the possibility, it does not prove it happened. Please stop making up false arguments.

>neither side of the debate has the definitive evidence

Agreed.

Re: Declassified U.S. report on origins of Covid-19 virus [pdf]

#165

Post by rich_sasha » Sat, Jun 24, 2023, 5:06 PM UTC

D13Fd wrote: post #149

rich_sasha wrote: post #122

As a non-American, I find it frustrating how American partisanship hijacked this discussion. Forget Republicans and Democrats. A priori, a lab leak, at least accidental,.is a totally plausible hypothesis. Evidence is hard to find either way so who knows. But then these became shibboleths for American polarisation and you can't say "lab leak" without being labelled a white supremacist. I'm not saying it did or did not…

I agree with all that. But there is also the question: why should we care? What difference does it make now?

jaybrendansmith made a good response. I would say more broadly, COVID happened, and could happen again. We need to understand how.

If it was natural in origin, we need to identify risk factors that we can minimize going forward.

And if it was lab-bourne somehow... Well ditto! Maybe we shut down this kind of research. Maybe we need better safety protocols. I don't know.

I know people are dead and won't undie if we understand this. But it seems to me to be totally against the essence of science to say, let's not investigate because it doesn't matter. It massively does. Just as understanding of the origin of the Universe, or our Solar System matters, or the human evolution, even though there too, at face value, such information has no use.

Re: Declassified U.S. report on origins of Covid-19 virus [pdf]

#166

Post by votepaunchy » Sat, Jun 24, 2023, 5:20 PM UTC

Klinky wrote: post #158

kcplate wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s the thing, I am certainly interested if governments are engineering a possible plague and accidentally this plague leaked out and killed many. That has a widespread obvious general interest to the public. What I don’t understand is why laypeople with no connection to the possible groups and government supposedly involved would be motivated to take up the cause against the speculation. What motivates them? I do…

I literally said speculate all you want. Just don't expect your speculation to be magically accepted as truth when that's not what the evidence supports. Have you spoken about your concerns with your congresspersons & asked them to support bans on risky gain-of-function research? That'd be something tangible you could do than just speculating on top of speculation.

> Have you spoken about your concerns with your congresspersons & asked them to support bans on risky gain-of-function research? That'd be something tangible you could do than just speculating on top of speculation.

US law already bans US funding of gain-of-function research.

Re: Declassified U.S. report on origins of Covid-19 virus [pdf]

#167

Post by Klinky » Sat, Jun 24, 2023, 5:39 PM UTC

votepaunchy wrote: post #166

Klinky wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I literally said speculate all you want. Just don't expect your speculation to be magically accepted as truth when that's not what the evidence supports. Have you spoken about your concerns with your congresspersons & asked them to support bans on risky gain-of-function research? That'd be something tangible you could do than just speculating on top of speculation.

> Have you spoken about your concerns with your congresspersons & asked them to support bans on risky gain-of-function research? That'd be something tangible you could do than just speculating on top of speculation. US law already bans US funding of gain-of-function research.

Is this true? I saw NIH lifted a moratorium in 2017. There's currently an unpassed bill to stop Fed funding of gain-of-function research. It does not seem banned either completely or from federal funding.

Re: Declassified U.S. report on origins of Covid-19 virus [pdf]

#168

Post by kcplate » Sat, Jun 24, 2023, 5:46 PM UTC

Klinky wrote: post #164

kcplate wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why deflect here? What is your motivation to discount and argue against using circumstantial evidence to draw a conclusion possibility when neither side of the debate has the definitive evidence that you seek? Does it somehow bother your politics in some way? Are you just being a contrarian for contrary sake? Your desire for evidential purity in a situation where you are most likely not involved is really strange. I…

> discount and argue against using circumstantial evidence Didn't discount or argue against using circumstantial evidence, nor did I argue against speculating. I am stating the evidence only supports the possibility, it does not prove it happened. Please stop making up false arguments. >neither side of the debate has the definitive evidence Agreed.

The original comment you replied made no claim that those two links were definitive proof of a lab leak, only that they were known to be factual. They may be circumstantial but circumstantial evidence can still be provably true. You made the leap to assume that original commenter meant it as definitive proof of a lab leak in your comment.

I read the comment to mean thatit was offered as a strong circumstantial evidence because it was indisputably true due to the public records that support it.

Every study I see leaning towards a lab leak origin conclusion tend to be pretty specific to use words like “likely” or “probable” because of the lack of definitive evidence. Circumstantial evidence can be powerful, especially when the other side does not have a set of similar or better circumstantial evidence in their favor.

Re: Declassified U.S. report on origins of Covid-19 virus [pdf]

#169

Post by BasedAnon » Sat, Jun 24, 2023, 6:18 PM UTC

Klinky wrote: post #160

BasedAnon wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poisoning the well. Not alot of people subscribe to the COVID is 5G sickness theory aside from Facebook boomers, while Bill Gates' ideology and history of dodgy dealings in foreign countries is not even remotely comparable.

No, there's no evidence of Bill Gate's involvement in the appearance of COVID. You're drinking from the same well as those Facebook boomers.

That's not what I said.

Re: Declassified U.S. report on origins of Covid-19 virus [pdf]

#170

Post by BasedAnon » Sat, Jun 24, 2023, 6:19 PM UTC

Klinky wrote: post #159

BasedAnon wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you had literal witnesses it wouldn't be 'definitive' evidence, I'm not sure why you're using this argument as if you can't make claims about things you didn't directly observe.

Well I don't even think there's enough evidence here to win a civil trial where the bar is lower than criminal. Don't act like you have the answer while citing sources that literally say your claim might not be what happened. Y'all just want to jump to a conclusion.

You realise you don't have to agree with everything in a source you cite, right?