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GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

phoronix.com

371–380 of 387 posts

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now, the arbitrariness has been codified, and moderators can be selective with the force of law.

Do you have specific complaints about this CoC?

Needs a rename to be taken seriously, It's vague (prohibits "unfriendliness"(what does that even mean?)), Not needed (gcc existed for over 30 years so far without one), allows anti-GPL companies (see latest RHEL upstream source portal incident) running the steering committee to decide what the vague language actually means without disclosing what financial interests are behind the decisions to shut down discussions.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole point of it is that there are consequences if you breach it, otherwise it is almost entirely pointless.

yes but the consequences are decided by normal humans via the organization's normal decision-making procedures. The legal system isn't involved.

Right, but the legal system gets involved in cases of wrongful termination of contract or if the code enforcement itself leads to discrimination, harassment, or other issues.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have specific complaints about this CoC?

Needs a rename to be taken seriously, It's vague (prohibits "unfriendliness"(what does that even mean?)), Not needed (gcc existed for over 30 years so far without one), allows anti-GPL companies (see latest RHEL upstream source portal incident) running the steering committee to decide what the vague language actually means without disclosing what financial interests are behind the decisions to shut down discussions.

> prohibits "unfriendliness"

You’re inverting what is written in the CoC and reporting that here. The CoC does not prohibit unfriendliness.

I am guessing that the reason “be friendly and patient” is in the CoC is because projects like GCC are having trouble attracting new maintainers. As far as I can tell, the project is in trouble—for a long time, GCC was the only game in town, and now that people could just as easily decide to contribute to LLVM/Clang instead, GCC needs to take some effort to make sure that it still has maintainers long-term.

The idea that a CoC “not needed” doesn’t seem credible, I think you’d need to provide some kind of reasoning to support that argument. You haven’t provided any reasoning besides “GCC existed for 30 years without one”, and that argument doesn’t make any logical sense. The landscape has changed, there are competitors (LLVM), and some of GCC’s previous decisions at the highest level have made it somewhat hostile to contributors—something which the project can no longer afford to do.

> allows anti-GPL companies (see latest RHEL upstream source portal incident) running the steering committee to decide what the vague language actually means without disclosing what financial interests are behind the decisions to shut down discussions.

This seems like an unreasonable and invalid complaint to me. It hypothesizes that the CoC will be wielded as a weapon to achieve some kind of “anti-GPL” corporate goals, or something to that effect.

If anything, I’ve only seen, in the GCC project, “pro-GPL” abuses, where Stallman has directed GCC developers to make technical decisions not based on technical merits, but based on the desire of Stallman to advance the FSF’s pro-GPL goals politically. I’m talking about stuff like having a serializable IR here—technical decisions which make a lot of sense, but which the politics of GCC quashed in order to support the pro-GPL mission.

And here LLVM is, with its serializable IR, and pro-corporate licensing scheme, taking away mindshare from GCC.

The CoC is not really a pro-corporate tool any more than it is a pro-GPL tool. It is a tool for fixing problems in a community, and the GCC project needs to put a lot of thought and care into how it runs its community, because the long-term viability of that community is now in jeopardy. The CoC is there to improve the community—and if you think CoCs should have more detail, that’s something that can be fixed over time—rules tend to get more detailed as they are modified and updated.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#374
post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe there are legal things you could do outside of work that would get you fired?

Maybe, but they’d need to prove that it has an effect on how I do my job. They cannot just fire me because I say something they don’t like.

Most places hire "at will" and can fire anyone for any reason or no reason unless prohibited by law.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> were you there for the Old Times? Do you even lift, bruh? Come on, you said you were in middle school in 2004ish. "Old Times", indeed.

Peak Desktop Internet was twentyish years ago man, and the Web was only mainstreamish for, what, tenish years before that? if that? a lot has changed in the past 20 years, culturally, with the rise of the smartphone, and it's useful to reflect upon that—I don't know why you're insisting on being a dick about it. I have to assume you grew up in the smartphone era, and that's all you've ever known.

>it's useful to reflect upon that

Upon how much it sucks

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#376

I honestly really prefer an abrasive community. I think one thing we lost with the adoption of CoCs was the ability of the community to naturally filter out low-quality or abusive (do my homework or project for me) participants, and encourage dedication by requiring new users to earn actual real respect before being given it. It felt rewarding and… real to me to participate in these sorts of spaces, and is one of the…

projects usually start off like this, but often a dedicated userbase moves in and requires broader language control. the wild west stagnates from stability.

https://youtu.be/8zWz92f_HGs TnT

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Peak Desktop Internet was twentyish years ago man, and the Web was only mainstreamish for, what, tenish years before that? if that? a lot has changed in the past 20 years, culturally, with the rise of the smartphone, and it's useful to reflect upon that—I don't know why you're insisting on being a dick about it. I have to assume you grew up in the smartphone era, and that's all you've ever known.

> Peak Desktop Internet was twentyish years ago man, and the Web was only mainstreamish for, what, fifteenish years before that? 20 years ago = 2003 15 years before that= 1988 First web client = 1990 First public web page = 1991 NCSA Mosaic = 1993 Netscape Navigator = 1994 Mainstream Web is mid-late 90s.

2006: Facebook is made available to the general public

2007: iPhone launches

hence, Peak Desktop Internet = 2007ish, (a little under) twentyish years ago

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most CoC, unlike law, only list some general idea / ideology... In this specific CoC GCC use, "Be friendly" / "Be respectful" can be _very_ subjective.. This is super flexible and open to abuse.

The problem is that there's a committee that largely operates in the dark. Instead, the committee should be limited to gathering the information and, if any action is to be taken, it should ultimately be decided by a "jury of one's peers"--eg a group of non-committee members of the project selected at random. You'd probably have the project leadership operate in some capacity as a "judge". I mean... there's a reason…

The committee proposing this CoC doesn't operate in the dark, they operate in bright light in circus tents but most people are too revulsed to look.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#379
post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s really ok to not share every thought that happens to pop into your head.

I can assure you that was a very light and self-censored post on my feelings about DEI or rather DIE

Very brave of you. I'm so sorry you were censored for your courageous take.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree; you need rules to give guidelines to the moderators and participants both. The alternative is that there are no rules, or moderators get to decide themselves what is and isn't allowed, on a whim and inconsistenly, causing infighting and confusion. Call it something else than a code of conduct if it helps, but I don't believe you can not have a guideline of sorts.

This is making the incorrect assumption that moderators are somehow limited by the rules. They're always able to justify anything via sufficiently vague rules ("this isn't an exhaustive list" etc) or even just ignoring the rules and banning people they dislike, because for the most part, people don't notice unless they go after someone well known. All a CoC does is setup the illusion of open and unbiased enforcement.…

Ah yes. Don't try because it can't be perfect. Better to just leave it up to vague chance. Do y'all even consider what it is you're actually saying? Ever?
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