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Debris found came from missing Titan sub, says friend of passengers

bbc.com

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Re: Debris found came from missing Titan sub, says friend of passengers

#961

Post by krisoft »

CryptoBanker wrote: post #712
krisoft wrote: post #599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> to people speculating that the passengers may have drowned In layman terms “drowned” simply means that you died under water. It is not a sophisticated statement about the manner of anyone’s passing. People in the know understand that on a submarine you can die of hypoxia (if they mismanage the oxygen), or die of hypothermia (if they get stuck on the bottom with an intact pressure vessel, but no electricity) or die…

Who died and made you the authority on layman terms? I'm pretty sure most people if they heard "drowned" would assumed that it was because they had water in their lungs

> Who died and made you the authority on layman terms?

Fair. I'm not an expert on it or anything. But I do listen to how people speak, and what they mean. Many people are using words loosely.

I searched on twitter for tweets with the term "drowned". Scrolled through a few hundred, and filtered out the ones which were talking about the Titan incident and which said or implied that the people on-board "drowned". I found 5 such tweets. This is of course not an exhaustive sample, but is what I have now.

Here are the five tweets (please don't harass any of these people, also I'm not endorsing these tweets in any way)

- https://twitter.com/OfSymbols/status/1671581923825668098 - https://twitter.com/samphiresprite/status/167196593855857459... - https://twitter.com/Devin_Young_/status/1671237153446035456 - https://twitter.com/NagaSlateTTV/status/1672006200538570752 - https://twitter.com/martinvars/status/1671994282478010368

Do read them. Do you have the impression that these people considered the failure modes of a submersible and concluded that the people on-board died due to a slow leak filling up the cabin and their lungs filling up with water? Or it is more likely that they use the word "drowned" as a loose shorthand for "died under water / died due to the sea"?

I think they more likely did the second. Either never considered how one dies on a submarine, or they were writing without care for exactitude. In fact I have evidence for this second one in one of these cases. Devin_Young_ who claims to be a veteran submariner and he was called out[1] in a later tweet for the implications of the term "drowned".

His answer was "I used “drowned” loosely. You are correct; it would be violent, and instantaneous.".

Also NagaSlateTTV used the hastag "implosion" right after calling those lost "drowned". Which to me implies that they are using the term in a more general way, rather than precisely per the definition.

1: https://twitter.com/Devin_Young_/status/1671267529392783360

Re: Debris found came from missing Titan sub, says friend of passengers

#962

Post by [deleted] »

DonHopkins wrote: post #925
mulmen wrote: post #829

The most troubling thing about this to me is Stockton Rush’s cavalier attitude toward ageism [1]. In considering young college graduates as uniquely “inspirational” he set them up for a lifetime of guilt. I don’t think age or race has any place in inspirational calculus. I’m uncomfortable with how comfortably he dismisses submariner veterans as “old white guys”. Engineering is a discipline that requires experience an…

Apparently being ageist is now "woke". What an incredibly flexible term the right wing has appropriated! Conservatives Are Now Blaming The Titanic Sub Tragedy On 'Wokeness': https://news.yahoo.com/conservatives-now-blaming-titanic-sub...

[deleted]

Re: Debris found came from missing Titan sub, says friend of passengers

#963

Post by [deleted] »

bdowling wrote: post #957
mulmen wrote: post #730

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't make you a cynic, it makes you a conspiracy theorist.

Being a conspiracy theorist doesn’t make you wrong, it means you believe that the likely motivations or interests of various parties are likely the actual cause of the observed behavior, even when there is no proof. Here, news outlets probably would have been motivated to carry the “hope” story even if they knew it was false, because money. A conspiracy theorist would believe that because the news outlets probably wo…

[deleted]

Re: Debris found came from missing Titan sub, says friend of passengers

#964

Post by krisoft »

beowulfey wrote: post #945
krisoft wrote: post #655

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The big one is designing the sub to travel to 95% of the expected maximum depth, leaving a 5% margin of safety. Sorry, but this does not follow. I believe you are confused about the fact that the Titan was designed to go down to 4,000 meters, and the Titanic lays at 3,840 meters. And because 3,840 is so close to 4,000 you believe they had no safety margin. Do I understand you well? But the thing is when you design…

Yes but you also don’t want to operate so close to the safety margin. If you need to travel to 3800m, you design a sub to safely withstand 1.5x that. And then agreed that yes it should not implode right if it were to reach that depth. At least this is how I remember learning it, which I admit was a long time ago.

> don’t want to operate so close to the safety margin.

How do you know they were operating close to their safety margin?

Re: Debris found came from missing Titan sub, says friend of passengers

#965

Post by whatscooking »

jb1991 wrote: post #890
whatscooking wrote: post #839

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most old engineers I’ve worked with are terrible and many younger ones are way more talented.

And what do you think happens to those talented young engineers when they get older? Are they no longer talented, just old?

[flagged]

Re: Debris found came from missing Titan sub, says friend of passengers

#966

Post by jethro_tell »

xwdv wrote: post #806
jethro_tell wrote: post #783

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a chance. The whole problem with subs is that water weighs about 8lb per gallon. So, at 4000m you're looking at something between 4500 5500 psi. Thats a small truck worth of pressure every square inch in the hull. Once you breach the structure, think crushing a tin can in the middle, things collapse pretty fast. As do bodies. If you figure your body is 2 foot by 6 foot, the pressure would be like parking 100 full…

The timeline says the sub was expected back at 3PM, but the implosion was heard at night. So in between the hours of 3PM to when the explosion was heard, I speculate the sub was somehow trapped and unable to leave the wreck site, until after finally spending all that time at depth something happened that suddenly caused an implosion.

Ah, I did misunderstand your comment though from what I heard the implosion was heard about 2 hours after the sub left the mothership. Which would put them there before entering the sub and before making it the full depth.

I'm sure it will be a little more clear as all the parts get put together.

Re: Debris found came from missing Titan sub, says friend of passengers

#967

Post by cma »

az226 wrote: post #714
cma wrote: post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He seems unaware that they made several trips to the Titanic in the sub already.

Carbon fiber would get worn down very rapidly compared to steel.

I'm not saying that to say the sub was good. I think the guy's conclusions are probably right but he seems to just be roughly catching up on things at the last minute and missing lots of important info, so not a good source on it.

Re: Debris found came from missing Titan sub, says friend of passengers

#968

Post by kunwon1 »

can16358p wrote: post #860
housemusicfan wrote: post #847

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the attitude you need to give birth to truly innovative ideas like a Bluetooth controller attached to the desktop PC that controlled his hunk of shit submarine that killed everyone on board. He proudly describes it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClkytJa0ghc

I do agree with you, though I think BT game controller wasn't a bad idea for two reasons: - Battle-tested and easily replaceable, compared to a custom one. - Cables have a snapping risk in that limited physical space, Bluetooth solves it and there's no risk of EMI 4km underwater anyway. The carbonfiber structure... that's another story. Terrible.

  - Cables have a snapping risk in that limited physical space, Bluetooth solves it and there's no risk of EMI 4km underwater anyway.
Cables can easily be made practically 'unsnappable' in this context

Controls could also be mounted directly to a fixed panel, as is the case in most (all?) other submarines

My engineer brain says that moving from 'wired' to 'bluetooth' for a safety-critical connection is pure lunacy. I don't think any objective appraisal could reasonably conclude that this decreased risk or increased safety. Bluetooth is not even close to reliable enough for this application, and neither is any other wireless technology as far as I know

Re: Debris found came from missing Titan sub, says friend of passengers

#969

Post by phkahler »

IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #942
pixelfarmer wrote: post #889

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? Meditate on? What are you smoking? Anyone remembers the Boeing MAX 8 issues? Safety procedures / processes had been disabled on purpose for greed and people eventually died as a result. History has a truckload of examples in that direction, also because, despite better knowledge, proactively trying to prevent problems is often seen as some expense that is not needed ... until something happens and then the blam…

What are you talking about? Virtually the entire world has taken a peek behind the curtain of these extreme sub adventures. Anyone that matters now understands they are extremely risky , and its very likely no 1 company will be able to nurture this market for years without serious engineering bonafides. And as an additional bonus, the main culprit has been taken out of the gene pool. This is actually rare. We can arg…

>> Virtually the entire world has taken a peek behind the curtain of these extreme sub adventures. Anyone that matters now understands they are extremely risky...

Right. People will be afraid of subs for years. I'm glad we learned so much from this.

Re: Debris found came from missing Titan sub, says friend of passengers

#970

Post by anigbrowl »

bg46z wrote: post #142
anigbrowl wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Telemetry? who needs it' - Oceangate, probably

Telemetry doesn’t work very well under water. There’s work to be done on telemetry that is capable underwater, but it seems a long ways off.

Why are you assuming it's wireless? ROVs use data tethers with the spool kept on the base ship. Or you could have a black box recorder attached to the sub by a cable that blows its connection and floats to the surface if it loses contact for more than a few minutes.

I can think of 10 different ways to maintain some contact with the surface and store some data about dive conditions. Honestly perplexed at all the people who are still buying into Oceangate's demonstrably bad way of doing things and just saying it's impossible to do any better.

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