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Thoughts on Svelte(Kit), one year and 3B requests later

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Re: Thoughts on Svelte(Kit), one year and 3B requests later

#131

Post by sebastianconcpt »

Graffur wrote: post #77
impulser_ wrote: post #49

I never built a web app in my life. I have always been on the server side. Recently I spent a couple days building the same web app in Next, Nuxt, and SvelteKit just to get a feel of how to build a web app today. The web app was pretty basic. A couple of pages showing data from different apis and auth with user setting page. My favorite by far was SvelteKit despite being the one with the smaller community. It was act…

> I never built a web app in my life. > I would highly suggest people to try SvelteKit. I feel like this is a good summary of tech trends these days.

Which is valid as an unpolluted testimony about smoothness of adoption, right?

BTW, is noticeable that you were careful to omit the `I have always been on the server side` part.

Re: Thoughts on Svelte(Kit), one year and 3B requests later

#132

Post by [deleted] »

papito wrote: post #118
EnragedParrot wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like a symptom of you falling behind the technology curve more than a problem with the technology curve. Most people are achieving vastly more with newer tech than ever could have been done in the early 2000s. You've gotta be looking through some densely rose colored glasses if you think that that the web in the 2000s was just as powerful as the web of today.

I resisted learning a lot of it knowing that there will be a snap-back to simpler designs long-term, and it's happening now. And when I tried, it went nowhere. After months of work on my side project with Electron, Typescript, and Vue, I was in the same place because every time I opened IntelliJ, it seemed all of my effort went into just having it build again . Now I chose ArrowJS for my project, and it's been a deli…

[deleted]

Re: Thoughts on Svelte(Kit), one year and 3B requests later

#133

Post by zdragnar »

pcthrowaway wrote: post #120
10xDev wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reactive declarations that work using syntax outside of JS thanks to the compiler does make it a bit more than just JS. https://twitter.com/youyuxi/status/1057291776724271104

Kind of like how JSX is actually JSXScript, sure

JSX is, imho, more akin to a macro; the syntax is replaced with simple expressions. Technically, the JSX syntax isn't even necessary to use React, though most people prefer it.

Svelte bakes itself fully into your code in a way that you can't do without the compiler and still be using svelte.

Re: Thoughts on Svelte(Kit), one year and 3B requests later

#134

Post by EnragedParrot »

papito wrote: post #118
EnragedParrot wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like a symptom of you falling behind the technology curve more than a problem with the technology curve. Most people are achieving vastly more with newer tech than ever could have been done in the early 2000s. You've gotta be looking through some densely rose colored glasses if you think that that the web in the 2000s was just as powerful as the web of today.

I resisted learning a lot of it knowing that there will be a snap-back to simpler designs long-term, and it's happening now. And when I tried, it went nowhere. After months of work on my side project with Electron, Typescript, and Vue, I was in the same place because every time I opened IntelliJ, it seemed all of my effort went into just having it build again . Now I chose ArrowJS for my project, and it's been a deli…

I don't think there is laziness in falling behind the technology curve - the things that worked ten years ago still work today and if you're shipping code then what you're doing is working. But new technologies aren't overly complex and they generally make a developer's life easier, not harder, but they all come with a learning curve. And the landscape evolves quickly, so in order to leverage them you have to stay on top of it.

Re: Thoughts on Svelte(Kit), one year and 3B requests later

#135

Post by [deleted] »

sametmax wrote: post #43

I like the fact minimalist approaches, like svelte, htmx and alpine.js are getting more and more traction. I felt like fighting this fight alone for years in the golden years of node, webpack and react where everybody was creating crazy stacks and adding GraphQL and so on, to basically get what Django + jquery did 10 years ago in a tenth of the time and code. So far I also survived: - xml is the future - let's use no…

[deleted]

Re: Thoughts on Svelte(Kit), one year and 3B requests later

#136

Post by Tade0 »

bavell wrote: post #79
Tade0 wrote: post #61

> Reactive declarations and statements feel like powerful magic, and they are, but it’s very easy to hurt yourself by writing code that is almost impossible to debug, That's interesting, because one thing I'd discovered in Svelte, which I didn't even dream of seeing ever again was a legible stack trace. It literally goes all the way down to the very change that caused all the mayhem. > Svelte’s lack of protagonism I…

Full stack dev going on a decade here. Stack traces and errors in React are pretty awful, fully agree there. I've never even thought about the social aspect of being a react dev - is there one? Frontend sure, but react specifically? It's just a tool, nothing to get ideological or bent out of shape over. Couldn't give a shit what Abramov says beyond what is useful in my day-to-day. There are probably a lot of junior d…

> I've never even thought about the social aspect of being a react dev - is there one?

I've dipped my toes professionally in all the popular frameworks and only in React are people this hyped for every little thing.

Case in point: there was a demo on Twitter - of some new feature which I don't recall - that showed how React "renders 3000 components in real time" - components being 3D polygons.

Many comments praising the performance.

Then an outsider asked "is 3000 polygons really that much?" And he had a point.

> Never had a problem with them being "simple on the surface" but ymmv I guess.

Yes, you specifically. But if you look at your typical junior to mid developer, you'll see them get into hard to debug performance issues bery quickly.

It's the same issue as with RxJS in Angular - many praise it, but most understand it only just enough to get by, making a lot of mistakes along the way.

I think the phrase for this is "footgun".

Re: Thoughts on Svelte(Kit), one year and 3B requests later

#137

Post by aobdev »

andsoitis wrote: post #121
sametmax wrote: post #43

I like the fact minimalist approaches, like svelte, htmx and alpine.js are getting more and more traction. I felt like fighting this fight alone for years in the golden years of node, webpack and react where everybody was creating crazy stacks and adding GraphQL and so on, to basically get what Django + jquery did 10 years ago in a tenth of the time and code. So far I also survived: - xml is the future - let's use no…

> you can't code anything without async I'd like to understand what you mean by this. As soon as you introduce network requests in a system, don't you need to deal with asynchrony?

Everything in JS started with callbacks, then promises came on to the scene with libraries like Bluebird, then the async/await syntax was added to the spec. The language was always able to handle concurrency but it was a long road to the current state.

Re: Thoughts on Svelte(Kit), one year and 3B requests later

#138

Post by say_it_as_it_is »

Graffur wrote: post #77
impulser_ wrote: post #49

I never built a web app in my life. I have always been on the server side. Recently I spent a couple days building the same web app in Next, Nuxt, and SvelteKit just to get a feel of how to build a web app today. The web app was pretty basic. A couple of pages showing data from different apis and auth with user setting page. My favorite by far was SvelteKit despite being the one with the smaller community. It was act…

> I never built a web app in my life. > I would highly suggest people to try SvelteKit. I feel like this is a good summary of tech trends these days.

It goes all the way upstream. People build SAAS companies offering services based on best practices while the product/engineering have had zero prior experience with the subject until their current project. People found companies selling themselves to investors as experts in the field that they have no experience in. Investors sell themselves as experts of the industry that they just invested in these founders for. Pension managers investing in the VC funds sell themselves as investment managers who practice a disciplined investment strategy.

Yet, the only people who usually are carefully evaluated are the engineers. The rest get a pass based on personality and character.

Re: Thoughts on Svelte(Kit), one year and 3B requests later

#139

Post by EnragedParrot »

papito wrote: post #124
EnragedParrot wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A well-tooled development environment takes minutes to set up.

A well-tooled environment does not just spring out of an ether. Maintaining proper tooling in a distributed system often requires more work than the system itself. In a lot of cases, the business does not even consider this kind of time commitment, pushing the team to churn out features, and who eventually just bog down in insane complexity.

This strikes me as a, "poor carpenter blames his tools" situation. Obviously if a business does a bad job considering the needs of their engineers then the needs of their engineers won't be met, but that doesn't mean that the modern development environment is the problem.

Re: Thoughts on Svelte(Kit), one year and 3B requests later

#140

Post by mozey »

chasd00 wrote: post #116
mozey wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> dynamically loaded modules, error boundaries In an MPA, modules https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Guid... can be included on the pages that require them with a script tag. Errors (and new features) are limited to a specific page, and the rest of the site remains unchanged. > suspense (or another form of components loading their own data) The htmx lib https://htmx.org/ mostly takes care of this…

doesn't the csp issue in htmx basically make it a non-starter for most applications? maybe that's been fixed somehow..

The hx-disable attribute can be used to disable htmx for parts of the DOM that load user generated content, is that what you're referring to? https://htmx.org/docs/#security
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