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Apple's union-busting practices violated employee rights at NYC store

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Re: Apple's union-busting practices violated employee rights at NYC store

#131

Post by pierat »

philwelch wrote: post #105
pierat wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These companies need to remember that NLRB and unionization was an agreement to take harsh violence off the table. In the old days, when First International and IWW was created, unionization efforts were to "set the bosses house on fire, with them in it", "pass out rifles to all workers and shoot up the bosses house", assaults, bombs.. you name it. That's also where we have the paramilitary force, Pinkertons. They we…

I certainly wasn’t expecting to see a rousing defense of terrorism and violence on Hacker News today.

Let me make this blatantly clear. I am not advocating "shooting up the bosses house", arson, assault, etc.

I AM advocating education, by both employees and companies' legal council. Go study your union history. Teach it to colleagues. Understand your rights as non-union worker and union worker. And, unionize. (A company would consider that violent, given how they respond with illegal actions.)

And, you'd be surprised just how effective a PEACEFUL protest at the sidewalk at the bosses' house is. Ive seen a variation of that with a peaceful protest of our mayor doing dumb shit. The grievances got solved real quick.

Re: Apple's union-busting practices violated employee rights at NYC store

#132

Post by j_walter »

Timon3 wrote: post #120
j_walter wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not some fancy new phone...this is an almost permanent obligation you are placing on the company, the employees and future employees. The decision to join a union should be placed on facts and only facts.

> This is not some fancy new phone... Wow, so you seriously just ignore it all. Why do you think that humans are susceptible to marketing in the context of a phone, and not in unionization? Where is the difference? > this is an almost permanent obligation you are placing on the company, the employees and future employees. The decision to join a union should be placed on facts and only facts. Sure, but what if you sup…

On company time/property...why is that wrong? Unions can approach employees anywhere off company property...but the company can only do it while on company property. Who has the advantage?

Re: Apple's union-busting practices violated employee rights at NYC store

#133

Post by dllthomas »

pmichaud wrote: post #95
lscdlscd wrote: post #2

Just goes to show how effective unionizing is. Power to those workers! They're a key part in making Apple one of the most valuable companies in the world. They deserve a fair share.

I don't think it shows this. I think it shows that companies expect unions to be a huge pain in the ass that they would go out of their way to avoid (even illegally), but it doesn't follow that unions are therefore effective at their stated purpose for the workers. That may or may not be the case.

Right. I happen to think it often is the case, but management resistance alone doesn't show it. In the world of anti-union PR where unionization hurts everyone but parasitic union organizers, we would also expect to see management resistance, so that can't distinguish between that world and ours.

Re: Apple's union-busting practices violated employee rights at NYC store

#134

Post by [deleted] »

j_walter wrote: post #132
Timon3 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is not some fancy new phone... Wow, so you seriously just ignore it all. Why do you think that humans are susceptible to marketing in the context of a phone, and not in unionization? Where is the difference? > this is an almost permanent obligation you are placing on the company, the employees and future employees. The decision to join a union should be placed on facts and only facts. Sure, but what if you sup…

On company time/property...why is that wrong? Unions can approach employees anywhere off company property...but the company can only do it while on company property. Who has the advantage?

[deleted]

Re: Apple's union-busting practices violated employee rights at NYC store

#135

Post by Timon3 »

j_walter wrote: post #132
Timon3 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is not some fancy new phone... Wow, so you seriously just ignore it all. Why do you think that humans are susceptible to marketing in the context of a phone, and not in unionization? Where is the difference? > this is an almost permanent obligation you are placing on the company, the employees and future employees. The decision to join a union should be placed on facts and only facts. Sure, but what if you sup…

On company time/property...why is that wrong? Unions can approach employees anywhere off company property...but the company can only do it while on company property. Who has the advantage?

Now you are switching up your argument. Do you now agree that marketing etc. are also an important factor in these kinds of decisions?

> On company time/property...why is that wrong?

Earlier you said that employees should make these decisions on facts, and facts alone. It's wrong because companies have a lot of power to distort these facts because of company time/property. If you really want employees to make these decisions just on facts, why would it be bad for the company if unions are allowed to market in breakrooms etc.?

> Unions can approach employees anywhere off company property...but the company can only do it while on company property. Who has the advantage?

Very, very clearly the company. Because the company can also approach employees outside of company property, but the union can't on company property. This means the company has full control over more than half an employees waking hours, whereas unions have control over exactly nothing.

Re: Apple's union-busting practices violated employee rights at NYC store

#136

Post by randomdata »

dragonwriter wrote: post #130
randomdata wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The tax on labor is far higher than the tax on capital. So, in the USA, if I were to make $50,000 in a year producing widgets, the tax rate on that amount would be higher if I made the widgets by hand than if I had a robot produce the widgets for me? That is interesting. In my country, the product of capital is taxed at the same rate as the product of labour. Or are you trying to talk about capital gains? The human…

> So, in the USA, if I were to make $50,000 in a year producing widgets, the tax rate on that amount would be higher if I made the widgets by hand than if I had a robot produce the widgets for me? No, you spent $50,000 buying labor vs. $50,000 aquiring machines and parts to build widgets, your taxes and the taxes on the people you bought from would be higher in the labor case. > Or are you trying to talk about capita…

> No, you spent $50,000 buying labor vs. $50,000 aquiring machines and parts to build widgets, your taxes and the taxes on the people you bought from would be higher in the labor case.

Why is that?

The taxes paid would be the same here. If we say the rate is 10%, labour case would pay a straight $5,000. In the machine case the business selling it might profit $5,000, so they would pay $500, and $25,000 in labour costs to produce the machine, so they would pay $2,500, and $20,000 in materials gets divvied up in the same manner, leaving another $2,000. 500 + 2500 + 2000 = $5,000.

> No, the human equivalent of capital gains is capital gains

Okay, but then from that perspective the capital gains tax rate is always the same capital gains rate no matter what. The earlier comment suggested there were different rates. I guess that isn't the case.

Re: Apple's union-busting practices violated employee rights at NYC store

#137

Post by randomdata »

synetic wrote: post #127
randomdata wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The tax on labor is far higher than the tax on capital. So, in the USA, if I were to make $50,000 in a year producing widgets, the tax rate on that amount would be higher if I made the widgets by hand than if I had a robot produce the widgets for me? That is interesting. In my country, the product of capital is taxed at the same rate as the product of labour. Or are you trying to talk about capital gains? The human…

My understanding is that tax on capital refers to capital gains taxes.

That could be, but then how does that line up with labour? Labour is taxed on the productive output, just like the productive output of capital is taxed (at least in this country; I am not up on the US tax code). Capital gains is an additional tax placed on capital. There is no corresponding tax placed on labour.

Re: Apple's union-busting practices violated employee rights at NYC store

#138

Post by refurb »

j16sdiz wrote: post #99
lscdlscd wrote: post #2

Just goes to show how effective unionizing is. Power to those workers! They're a key part in making Apple one of the most valuable companies in the world. They deserve a fair share.

Meanwhile in China, all union except the state-driven ones are illegal. Deng Xiaoping took away the right to go onstrike because "the communist party is owned by the worker and represents the best interest of the workers".

Same thing in Singapore. Unions were a hot bed of communism and radicalism leading to protests and riots.

Now there is one union - NTUC, and it's the only legal union.

Re: Apple's union-busting practices violated employee rights at NYC store

#139

Post by refurb »

derelicta wrote: post #20
40yearoldman wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Argument makes sense if you conveniently forget it's workers in the first place who created the company's wealth.

Compensation is based on supply and demand. If you're a hardware expert that Apple absolutely must hire, then you made out like a bandit.

If you're a retail worker that Apple can replace in a day, then your compensation will reflect that.

Re: Apple's union-busting practices violated employee rights at NYC store

#140

Post by pxc »

JimtheCoder wrote: post #4
lscdlscd wrote: post #2

Just goes to show how effective unionizing is. Power to those workers! They're a key part in making Apple one of the most valuable companies in the world. They deserve a fair share.

"They're a key part in making Apple one of the most valuable companies in the world." ...

workers: *produce all the value*

owners: think you can negotiate? get fucked, workers!

noble bystander: hey, these workers are a key part of the value creation equation here!!

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