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I give up on free software phones (2019)

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Re: I give up on free software phones (2019)

#151

Post by Arnavion »

recvonline wrote: post #8

Related: https://drewdevault.com/2023/06/16/Mobile-linux-retrospectiv...

>But pmOS really suffers from reliability issues – both on edge and on stable it seemed like every update broke some things and fixed others, [...] such as the media controls on my bluetooth headphones breaking [...] major showstoppers such as broken phone calls, SMS, [...] all of my icons disappearing from the UI

I would be surprised if these issues were because of pmOS and not because of Alpine. For example everything involved with bluetooth headphones or with calls or with SMS is in Alpine, with the exception of one ALSA UCM config file from the pmOS device-pine64-pinephone package that hasn't changed since 2021. In the ~2 years that I've had my PP (running pmOS Edge), the only time phone calls were broken were because of pipewire updates in Alpine repo. SMS has never broken. I don't use bluetooth headphones so I can't say anything about that.

Alpine is maintained somewhat "amateurishly" compared to other distros. Eg one of the main Alpine devs frequently makes commits to the packages repo without any sort of merge request or review process, which sometimes introduces new bugs and they then make more commits to fix. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, quite the opposite; it's just what the dev culture is, and it means fixes and changes go in quickly without bureaucracy etc. (And I'm pretty sure ddevault is aware of this.) Also while Alpine does involve pmOS folks in discussions about issues that might affect them (and many of the pmOS folks are also Alpine folks), things do slip through the crack many times, like the pipewire issue I mentioned and many others.

At the same time I expect these things to happen on edge but not on stable, so I'm surprised that he says he experienced them on stable too. I only use Edge myself so I can't say for certain.

In any case, to the overall point of having a phone that is 24/7/365 reliable at calls and SMS, I agree that "PinePhone running pmOS Edge" will not meet that requirement, for both software and hardware reasons.

Re: I give up on free software phones (2019)

#152

Post by thoweiruo234234 »

AndyKelley wrote: post #75

I got my librem in the mail last week after waiting several years(!!) for shipping. It's complete trash. The software is shit, the battery is shit, it's expensive, low specs, completely unusable. I'm willing to compromise a lot in order to go with the free software approach, but my god, just do better. There's no excuse for how un-functional this thing is. Try harder. I had the same reaction with the pine phone a cou…

Saifish on Sony Phones should work like a charm though.

Re: I give up on free software phones (2019)

#153

Post by api »

Gigachad wrote: post #149
api wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not a conspiracy. It’s just economics. There is no money in it so there is no funding available for it. Things like Librem are practically basement operations compared to Apple, Samsung, and Google. Mobile software is far harder and more costly to produce than desktop because the small form factor and rapid casual use cases mean there can be zero tolerance for bad UX. The amount of effort that goes into just get…

It wouldn't surprise me if Apple has spent more time and money on the iOS keyboard than Purism spent on the entire phone + software. Modern phones are probably the most advanced products humanity has ever produced.

What efforts like Purism should do is greatly reduce their scope. Make a device that does the basics which would be phone, text, basic web, and maybe a media player or support in the web browser for this use case. At first anything else could be accessed via the web, and maybe look at introducing PWAs as a way to do basic apps.

Keep the GUI as simple as possible with the smallest number of options and features as possible and focus more on perfecting what is there. Ship a more minimal better polished product. If you don’t have the resources to perfect it, drop it.

Make anything more custom or advanced configurable via ssh, but make the core features entirely usable without doing that. At first you might not even have an App Store, just a CLI package manager you can access from a PC with ssh.

It’d basically be a hackable minimalist phone. Someone who just wants a privacy oriented minimal phone could use it as is and power users could ssh in and hack on it.

Re: I give up on free software phones (2019)

#154

Post by [deleted] »

harry8 wrote: post #141
AndyKelley wrote: post #75

I got my librem in the mail last week after waiting several years(!!) for shipping. It's complete trash. The software is shit, the battery is shit, it's expensive, low specs, completely unusable. I'm willing to compromise a lot in order to go with the free software approach, but my god, just do better. There's no excuse for how un-functional this thing is. Try harder. I had the same reaction with the pine phone a cou…

Reminder whenever this comes up that the Nokia N900 was a beautiful, functional thing running linux and Free software 10 years ago. No really. Best phone I've ever owned. Better than apple or android. It's loss was immense.

[deleted]

Re: I give up on free software phones (2019)

#155

Post by criddell »

wombat-man wrote: post #11
2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #9

> Remove the search engine setting. Hard-code the search engine to Google How is that not monopoly behavior? Why don't they just put an iMessage alternative in Android at that point?

isn't that just RCS?

RCS could have been the answer, but then Google caved to carriers and others who want to see yourmessages and made end to end encryption optional.

Re: I give up on free software phones (2019)

#156

Post by SoftTalker »

Arnavion wrote: post #109
chongli wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your conspiracy explanation doesn’t pass the sniff test. There’s a much much simpler explanation: lack of demand. Heck, you’d think people on hacker news would be all over open source alternatives to proprietary hardware, software, and services. Yet take a brief wander over to one of the many (many) recent Reddit crisis threads and you’ll find countless naysayers talking about how lemmy and the like will never succee…

>Heck, you’d think people on hacker news would be all over open source alternatives to proprietary hardware, software, and services. Yes, every PinePhone thread has people posting that it's unusable because it's not as good as a flagship iPhone or Android. Or the usual "not ready to be a daily driver" ... because the definition of "daily driver" is apparently a constant of the universe written by God so everyone is e…

For me a mobile phone needs: phone; SMS; Web browser; maps/navigation. That’s 90% of what I do with my phone and I can live without the other 10%

Re: I give up on free software phones (2019)

#157

Post by SoftTalker »

api wrote: post #153
Gigachad wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wouldn't surprise me if Apple has spent more time and money on the iOS keyboard than Purism spent on the entire phone + software. Modern phones are probably the most advanced products humanity has ever produced.

What efforts like Purism should do is greatly reduce their scope. Make a device that does the basics which would be phone, text, basic web, and maybe a media player or support in the web browser for this use case. At first anything else could be accessed via the web, and maybe look at introducing PWAs as a way to do basic apps. Keep the GUI as simple as possible with the smallest number of options and features as pos…

I think maps/navigation is a must. Without that, I’d just use a $30 feature phone

Re: I give up on free software phones (2019)

#158

Post by nirui »

AndyKelley wrote: post #75

I got my librem in the mail last week after waiting several years(!!) for shipping. It's complete trash. The software is shit, the battery is shit, it's expensive, low specs, completely unusable. I'm willing to compromise a lot in order to go with the free software approach, but my god, just do better. There's no excuse for how un-functional this thing is. Try harder. I had the same reaction with the pine phone a cou…

Ain't we are all responsible for "duping" Purism into making that phone? Just look at the hypes after the announcement and how people loved it on paper. It's a classic example on why you should never fully trust your consumers for their suggestions.

Based on those hypes, Purism probably thought they can just create a phone for hackers first... and never realized the reality that even hackers loves consumer products. Just take a look on how many hackers owns a MacBook as their main driver despite the existence of many good Linux laptops. People are hiding some truths here, and they wanted a smart businessman to figure it out.

As one of the hypered, I'm sorry, Purism. This is the baseline that I actually wanted from a handheld device:

- Runs open source Android and Linux without bug, maybe also iOS;

- Powerful, as least 8GB of RAM and a relatively fast CPU;

- Big swappable battery, 4~6 hours continue use without a re-charge;

- But most importantly, INexpensive, at least not far more expensive than their consumer counterpart;

- Then you can start thinking about ergonomics, self-serving ability, usability and extensibility (builtin keyboard, swappable modem etc)

I should have listed all this clearly in my hype post...

Re: I give up on free software phones (2019)

#159

Post by jancsika »

pengaru wrote: post #42
SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't #8's opportunistic shutdown prevent it from functioning as a phone and receiving calls?

Not necessarily, if the cell modem stays powered on and can "wake" the application processor into booting when a call/sms is received.

That's what I had in mind. (See my edit above from earlier.)

Especially since both Pinephone and Librem devs are essentially dumpster diving for their hardware. Even Dell with all its resources couldn't get fast suspend on Ubuntu working (or whatever it's called). And that was just x86_64. But even I know how to power an RPI on/off! (I can even run the systemd thingy that reports startup times for various processes, which already puts us years ahead of the competition.)

If we work smart I honestly believe we can have a Linux device with the feature set and battery life of my LG VX5200 by the year 2030.

Edit: here's a sheet on that wonderful little indestructable device:

https://www.lg.com/us/mobile-phones/pdf/VX5200_Datasheet.pdf

Notice the support for "Mobile Web 2.0!" I don't believe that included SVG-- so already we're even closer to our goal!!!

Re: I give up on free software phones (2019)

#160

Post by criddell »

superkuh wrote: post #10

Giving up on free software phones is the first step. Now give up on software phones and just use a tiny non-computer cell phone that does text and voice. The removable battery will last a week and you won't even notice it in your pocket. The firmware will last the entire life of the phone, never needing to be updated. Replace the car GPS navigation functionality with a dedicated car GPS and you have most of the same…

And I guess also carry a camera. And a music player. And a gaming device. And maybe a flashlight too. And you probably want a voice recorder. And a pedometer. And maybe a pen and paper if you need to jot a quick note. And don’t forget your datebook with your calendar. And bring a calculator. You could also pick up one of those portable DVD players from the 90’s if you want to watch a movie on the go. I happen to enjoy a couple of sky gazing apps, so I would probably also take one of those old sky charts with me.
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