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Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

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Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#531

Post by vel0city »

erikstarck wrote: post #195
dagmx wrote: post #112

I’m glad there finally seems to be a push to a better standard in North America. I’m really curious how this affects Teslas market share though going forward. Their supercharger network is why we continue with them despite countless other issues. It’s their biggest moat as far as I’m concerned. Now I have significantly more options, and my next car will not be a Tesla. I’m sure I’m not alone in that. Is the brand nam…

First of all, the mission of Tesla is to transition the world to sustainable energy. If you believe them, that should be enough. But, second of all, this also makes business sense. Everyone will have to use the Tesla app, where they can get targeted offers and become a kind of "Tesla Light" customers. People wonder why Tesla doesn't advertise. Well, with these deals, the need for advertising is a lot less than withou…

> Everyone will have to use the Tesla app, where they can get targeted offers

Sounds like a nightmare. Want to go on a road trip? Either subject yourself to target advertising on your phone or pay a monthly fee. Hard pass!

I don't want to have to use an app at all if I want to charge. And yes, plug and charge is still using an app, you need to use some kind of app somewhere to manage the payment. I'd much rather have the option to just choose what payment I'd like to use before I start charging. Sure, optionally support plug and charge as well, but at least give me the option to not need to go to an app to choose this this card or that card and what not.

> remember that there are over 17000 superchargers in the US alone and the deal with Ford and GM only allows access to 12000 of them in the US and Canada together.

From what I understand, the ~5k chargers that aren't included are the older ones which don't speak CCS and they're usually the lower power ones. Those will probably be replaced over the next few years. Meanwhile all their newer ones will work with all the other compatible cars, so this percentage (~29% currently) will shrink over time, probably pretty rapidly given they're increasing the rate of new charger installation.

And in the end, for a lot of people it probably won't even actually matter. I've spent 2 years so far with a non-Tesla EV and it hasn't been any kind of difficulty for me in the slightest. Will it be nice to get access to another 1,500ish charging locations with a basic adapter? Sure, there's a few more charging locations on the road trip routes I take which will be open to me. Will it actually impact me day to day? Not in the slightest.

Oh no, there's a few thousand old chargers which charge at slower speeds than the new ones a several hundred miles away that my car can't charge at? Guess my car is worthless :'(

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#532

Post by MrMetlHed »

mdasen wrote: post #256

The recent moves by Tesla have probably been to force the government to amend regulations that would standardize the CCS Type 1 connector for DC fast charging. These rules were announced in February by the Biden administration for projects funded by the National Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Program. If Tesla hadn't gotten others on board, the next 5 years would likely see CCS chargers eclipse the Supercharger netw…

I would hope that the government still wouldn't give Tesla any funding until they agreed to the rest of the rules within the bill. They need a way to charge without an app and an open communication standard to initiate a charge. Anyone that has the proper adapter / port should be able to charge at any charging station that receives any amount of government funding. No one should have to rely on their vehicle manufacturer making a deal with the charger owner to charge at a station.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#533

Post by recursive »

Alupis wrote: post #502
NickM wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DC charging stations sometimes have batteries on site so that they can charge up from the grid and then deliver bursts of power from the batteries during charging. Apparently this is often worth it to avoid the high demand fees that utilities charge when you draw a lot of power at once. I assume this will become more ubiquitous as charging speeds continue to increase. (You're right that a megawatt is a high power dra…

The problem is obvious though, isn't it? Our current infrastructure simply cannot handle a ton of EV's all wanting to charge up all day long - as is done currently with gas stations all over the country. It'll take decades to bring our infrastructure up to where it needs to be to support this - yet people act like we're already there. Some states still struggle just to keep the lights on during major parts of the yea…

It's only the highest peaks of demand that cause problems for the grid. EV charging, on average, is one of the least time sensitive loads there is. People charge in the middle of the night when its cheap.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#534

Post by cyberax »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #89
snuxoll wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAICT NACS (read, the "standard" and not Tesla's original release) speaks the same protocol as CCS, it just combines the AC and DC pins into, yes, a sleeker connector. So no real "benefit", and it actually adds complexity into the car itself. But theoretically one could also make a NACS -> CCS adapter, so it wouldn't end up as a CHAdeMO situation. EDIT: I forgot, the NACS connector is more or less self-aligning if y…

NACS and CCS currently use different protocols. Older Tesla's require a retrofit to support CCS1. ( https://shop.tesla.com/en_ca/product/ccs-combo-1-adapter ). However, I suspect a big part of the reason why this flurry of announcements is happening now is that Tesla is upgrading their superchargers to be able to speak the CCS protocol over NACS.

> Older Tesla's require a retrofit to support CCS1.

This is needed because CCS1 requires special communication circuitry for the control data. All Teslas can speak CCS protocols.

The initial Supercharger support used different protocols. They were simple CAN-based, without any metering or billing. In fact, supercharging support was gated by a flag on the car's side.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#535

Post by isykt »

tdiggity wrote: post #466
isykt wrote: post #460

Is there any reason to buy a non-Tesla EV before 2025?

Buy the car for what it is today, not what it might be tomorrow. Many Tesla owners have been burned hoping for a feature, a retrofit, or even missing out on one taken away.

If I’m evaluating EVs for what they are today, I see little reason to buy a non-Tesla, since the charger is going to require an adapter for the charging infrastructure that appears to be the standard soon.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#536

Post by sangnoir »

wilg wrote: post #520
KaiserPro wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[citation needed] Its a plug, its bigger than NACS but apart from that its hard to notice the difference as a consumer

It's better engineered and designed. It's that simple. Yes, the differences aren't mind-blowing, but who cares. As long as they properly open it up and standardize it as they are saying they will, then this is a perfectly good outcome. Most EVs and fast chargers in the US have Tesla/NACS ports anyway, so this is the easier lift to standardize.

It's not black and white: CCS supports 800V charging, NACS does not (yet). Higher voltage = lower current and lighter cables and less strain on the connectors.

Superchargers wete also lagging on liquid-cooled cables, which will be included in v4.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#537

Post by specialist »

sangnoir wrote: post #484
Server6 wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that CCS is objectively bad and way worse than NACS. I suggest watching Sandy Munro's analysis on it.

Sandy Munro has a conflict of interest he doesn't always highlight when reporting on Tesla-related issues.

Please tell.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#538

Post by bombcar »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #478
mkozlows wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They did. It was CCS. Everyone except Tesla was on board to using it, and it was widely viewed as the standard going forward, and even Tesla was retro-fitting its chargers with CCS ("Magic Dock"), and presumably would one day switch its cars over. Then Tesla pulled a fast one on the morons at GM and Ford, who signed stupid deals that handed the future back to Tesla, and now the only question is whether Tesla consolid…

> Tesla pulled a fast one on the morons at GM and Ford Consumers prefer NACS to CCS. And Electrify America failed, spectacularly, to deliver a working product. (As someone put it bluntly, NACS exists. CCS does not. You bet on the horse, not the unicorn.) The auto industry is standardising around NACS because it will eventually force the standard into the open. That, in turn, enables antitrust questions about the Tesl…

We should have some brand of car install both plugs (as I understand the smarts are in the car, the plug is basically a dumb electrical connection) and then after a year or two see which people are using.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#539

Post by cyberax »

Fordec wrote: post #28
pathartl wrote: post #22

I'm not an EV user, so I need some clarification. Is NACS actually a better connector? Or is it just more abundant at the moment? Technology Connections did a deep dive on CCS and it seems like it's a more flexible connector with a truly open standard. The argument for NACS I've seen is that it's a little sleeker (does this really matter all that much?) and it's already on Tesla's supercharger network.

My perception is that CCS2 is better egineering than NACS but both are improvements over CCS1 so any alternate adoption is a market improvement. Having the pure "best design" is very rarely the deciding factor to market adoption.

CCS2 is... ok. It's not better engineered than NACS, but it's adequate.

In particular, it doesn't have the mechanical latch on top and has slightly larger DC conductors.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#540

Post by wilg »

sangnoir wrote: post #536
wilg wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's better engineered and designed. It's that simple. Yes, the differences aren't mind-blowing, but who cares. As long as they properly open it up and standardize it as they are saying they will, then this is a perfectly good outcome. Most EVs and fast chargers in the US have Tesla/NACS ports anyway, so this is the easier lift to standardize.

It's not black and white: CCS supports 800V charging, NACS does not (yet). Higher voltage = lower current and lighter cables and less strain on the connectors. Superchargers wete also lagging on liquid-cooled cables, which will be included in v4.

If it's possible for NACS to support 800V charging then that is not really a very meaningful advantage of CCS, is it? I think Tesla themselves will eventually switch to 800v at some point.

V3 Superchargers have liquid cooled cables, that's why they are thinner than V2 cables. V4 has even crazier liquid cooling, where the conductors are directly immersed in the coolant.

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