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Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

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Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#261

Post by panick21_ »

almost_usual wrote: post #237
dahfizz wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The long term future of Tesla is a battery manufacturer and a charging network. Those are the two things they are good at. The cars themselves are quickly being beaten out by the larger players.

I thought most Tesla batteries were CATL, LG, and Panasonic.

Tesla is working with those companies. But Tesla also has its own batteries, their own battery IP, their own manufacturing lines and so on. They even manufacture some of their own manufacturing equipment.

The have factories in Germany and Canada building dedicated battery manufacturing equipment.

They have their own battery factory in California, in Texas and in Berlin. Model Y are already being sold with these batteries in it.

And Tesla own batteries are very innovative specially in terms of their manufacturing.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#262

Post by erinnh »

throw0101c wrote: post #59
pathartl wrote: post #22

I'm not an EV user, so I need some clarification. Is NACS actually a better connector? Or is it just more abundant at the moment? Technology Connections did a deep dive on CCS and it seems like it's a more flexible connector with a truly open standard. The argument for NACS I've seen is that it's a little sleeker (does this really matter all that much?) and it's already on Tesla's supercharger network.

> Technology Connections did a deep dive on CCS and it seems like it's a more flexible connector with a truly open standard. He did a video on this Connextras channel about this news: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjny4u5THpU While he thinks the Tesla physical connector is probably better, the CCS communications standard is better (AIUI). So once Telsa adopts that, it will probably be a good system. Also: he's ta…

Wait. CCS1 cant handle three-phase power?

I just read about it and no wonder its not that popular.

You can charge 7.4kw maximum in the US at home with CCS1.

In Europe you can charge up to 22kw without going DC.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#263

Post by 3pt14159 »

traceroute66 wrote: post #240
outlace wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla Insurance is a kind of small moat. But I think Tesla is really banking on winning the automotive AI race. They currently don't seem to be winning, but that does appear to be their main gamble. If they can be the first to achieve level 4+ self-driving then they would definitely dominate regardless of charging infrastructure.

> Tesla Insurance is a kind of small moat. Only idiots buy black-box based car insurance (whether Tesla or any other). I mean, come on, insurance companies are already renowned for slippery policy wordings and the desire to get out of paying-out. Do you seriously think an insurance company having access to your driving data is really being done for your benefit ? I would be willing to bet its so that Mr Risk Adjustor…

Um, no?

Why would a source of signal that has aligned incentives for all three major parties (individual, manufacturer, and insurance company) not be selected for by the market?

It's not as if people are buying meteor insurance here. Automotive accidents are frequent enough to where if a policy provider fails to cover damage that really is in-policy they'll be sued, regulated, and shamed.

Even more so, since Tesla has a financial incentive to ensure that these benefits really do accrue to the driver.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#264

Post by johndhi »

dagmx wrote: post #112

I’m glad there finally seems to be a push to a better standard in North America. I’m really curious how this affects Teslas market share though going forward. Their supercharger network is why we continue with them despite countless other issues. It’s their biggest moat as far as I’m concerned. Now I have significantly more options, and my next car will not be a Tesla. I’m sure I’m not alone in that. Is the brand nam…

Pretty sure Tesla's moat is that people think they are cool and other EVs aren't.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#265

Post by mkozlows »

dagmx wrote: post #112

I’m glad there finally seems to be a push to a better standard in North America. I’m really curious how this affects Teslas market share though going forward. Their supercharger network is why we continue with them despite countless other issues. It’s their biggest moat as far as I’m concerned. Now I have significantly more options, and my next car will not be a Tesla. I’m sure I’m not alone in that. Is the brand nam…

The thing about how this is affects Tesla is "compared to what?"

Compared to the historic status quo where there were no other chargers, and Tesla had exclusive access to a large-ish proprietary charging network, it looks like Tesla giving up their advantage, and seems bad.

But the forward-looking status quo was going to be a gigantic network of CCS chargers that makes Tesla's proprietary network look small, with every other car maker using CCS. In that world, Tesla would have had to switch their cars over to CCS eventually and retrofit their existing chargers to CCS, and people who bought Teslas with the proprietary plug have a terrible UX of needing adapters everywhere.

Compared to _that_ status quo, this is a huge win for Tesla (and one that back-foots every other carmaker, which -- if NACS does take off -- need to do their own migration to a new charging port and strand their existing customers with the adapter life, making their earliest adopters angry and frustrated). So yeah, this is a great move for Tesla, and GM and Ford in enabling it are total idiots. (Rivian is just going along with the semi-inevitable at this point.)

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#266

Post by 93po »

johndhi wrote: post #264
dagmx wrote: post #112

I’m glad there finally seems to be a push to a better standard in North America. I’m really curious how this affects Teslas market share though going forward. Their supercharger network is why we continue with them despite countless other issues. It’s their biggest moat as far as I’m concerned. Now I have significantly more options, and my next car will not be a Tesla. I’m sure I’m not alone in that. Is the brand nam…

Pretty sure Tesla's moat is that people think they are cool and other EVs aren't.

Or that they have, by far, the best products at given prices.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#267

Post by Kirby64 »

conk wrote: post #78
pathartl wrote: post #22

I'm not an EV user, so I need some clarification. Is NACS actually a better connector? Or is it just more abundant at the moment? Technology Connections did a deep dive on CCS and it seems like it's a more flexible connector with a truly open standard. The argument for NACS I've seen is that it's a little sleeker (does this really matter all that much?) and it's already on Tesla's supercharger network.

CCS current spec/design can deliver up to 350kW (although few if any cars can take advantage of that today). NACS claims it can provide up to 1MW (1000A @ 1000V). I think it will be a while before we see cars able to charge anywhere near this, but there is a trend right now of big EV pickups with massive batteries. Higher power chargers means faster charge times. The only downside I see with NACS is you can’t level 2…

To note, the J1772 connector (the mainstream AC charging port in most cars in the US) also does not have 3 phase support. For commercial charging, the typical approach is to just use 2 phases of a 3 phase commercial supply for AC charging. This basically means commercial charging is limited to 208V (2 phases of 120V that are 120 deg out of phase).

So, there's no loss of function going from CCS in the US to NACS.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#268

Post by 93po »

garyfirestorm wrote: post #221
outlace wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla Insurance is a kind of small moat. But I think Tesla is really banking on winning the automotive AI race. They currently don't seem to be winning, but that does appear to be their main gamble. If they can be the first to achieve level 4+ self-driving then they would definitely dominate regardless of charging infrastructure.

Level 4? Mercedes already beat them to level 3 https://www.theverge.com/2023/1/27/23572942/mercedes-drive-p...

This is a tired argument. Level 3 driving in extremely strict conditions in a very small area using technology and software that doesn't scale isn't "beating" Tesla.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#269

Post by crazygringo »

johndhi wrote: post #264
dagmx wrote: post #112

I’m glad there finally seems to be a push to a better standard in North America. I’m really curious how this affects Teslas market share though going forward. Their supercharger network is why we continue with them despite countless other issues. It’s their biggest moat as far as I’m concerned. Now I have significantly more options, and my next car will not be a Tesla. I’m sure I’m not alone in that. Is the brand nam…

Pretty sure Tesla's moat is that people think they are cool and other EVs aren't.

Just to clarify, in business terminology, that's not a moat.

A moat is something difficult/impossible for other competitors to cross, something strategically defensive.

Being cool isn't a moat because anyone else can become cool. In contrast, network effects are a classic example of a moat, because no matter how much cooler/better your product is, people won't switch until the majority of the rest of their network switches. So nobody moves, hence a defensive moat.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#270

Post by pfisch »

outlace wrote: post #204
dagmx wrote: post #112

I’m glad there finally seems to be a push to a better standard in North America. I’m really curious how this affects Teslas market share though going forward. Their supercharger network is why we continue with them despite countless other issues. It’s their biggest moat as far as I’m concerned. Now I have significantly more options, and my next car will not be a Tesla. I’m sure I’m not alone in that. Is the brand nam…

Tesla Insurance is a kind of small moat. But I think Tesla is really banking on winning the automotive AI race. They currently don't seem to be winning, but that does appear to be their main gamble. If they can be the first to achieve level 4+ self-driving then they would definitely dominate regardless of charging infrastructure.

I'm not sure it will really matter that much if they have level 4+ 1 year before their competition.
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