Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs • Hacker News Board

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#221

Post by garyfirestorm » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 4:07 PM UTC

outlace wrote: post #204

dagmx wrote: post #112

I’m glad there finally seems to be a push to a better standard in North America. I’m really curious how this affects Teslas market share though going forward. Their supercharger network is why we continue with them despite countless other issues. It’s their biggest moat as far as I’m concerned. Now I have significantly more options, and my next car will not be a Tesla. I’m sure I’m not alone in that. Is the brand nam…

Tesla Insurance is a kind of small moat. But I think Tesla is really banking on winning the automotive AI race. They currently don't seem to be winning, but that does appear to be their main gamble. If they can be the first to achieve level 4+ self-driving then they would definitely dominate regardless of charging infrastructure.

Level 4? Mercedes already beat them to level 3

https://www.theverge.com/2023/1/27/23572942/mercedes-drive-p...

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#222

Post by panick21_ » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 4:09 PM UTC

pornel wrote: post #113

panick21_ wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stellantis has dedicated EVs in Europe. That largely why Stellantis was created in the first place. So FCA would not be totally lost on EVs. The PSA group does have EVs. But you are correct, they are not much invested in CCS in the US. Unlike say Volkswagen.

By lack of a dedicated platform I mean that all of their EVs share the platform with ICE/hybrid versions of vehicles. They're either available with an engine of your choice (like Peugeot and DS), or are only a new body on an older ICE+EV shared platform (like Jeep Avenger is built on Opel/Vauxhall Astra). Contrast this with VW MEB, Hyundai/Kia eGMP, Porsche J1, Mercedes EVA, etc. that were all ground-up EV skateboard…

I thought PSA already had that. But maybe I was wrong.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#223

Post by traceroute66 » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 4:09 PM UTC

Symbiote wrote: post #178

jaclaz wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In most of Europe homes do have 3-phase power and large loads like an EV are required to use it. Yes and no, distribution is usually 3-phase so the 3 phases do arrive to the building, but in a number of countries in Europe inside the home only 1 phase is used and the amount of available power (by contract) is a fraction of what the US are used to (of course depending by country, but it is rare that a house has a con…

Please don't generalize "Europe" when you aren't sure. (Also goes for the GP.) I have three-phase power in an 80m² apartment, as that's standard in Denmark. I never saw three-phase power in a house or flat in Britain, but part of the terrible plumbing is 7-9kW electric showers. (Cheaper to install than a shower connected to hot water, landlord doesn't care about the price to run it.)

> Please don't generalize "Europe" when you aren't sure. (Also goes for the GP.) I have three-phase power in an 80m² apartment, as that's standard in Denmark.

Now now kids, play nicely. ;-)

I think the underlying question we should really be asking here is not willy-waving over whether you have a three-phase supply or not, but rather how large your main fuse is (there's a euphemism for you !).

I'm not familiar with Denmark, but I suspect even your fancy 80m² apartment with its three-phase supply will still only have a (relatively) tiny main fuse.

TL;DR you're still not going to have a supercharger at home any time soon.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#224

Post by vel0city » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 4:13 PM UTC

itsoktocry wrote: post #208

vel0city wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How to switch that to an all-electric system? Simple, most residents of the town won't be at those stations regularly. Most of my DCFC charging sessions have been because I've been wanting to try out different locations and charging equipment, not because I needed the DCFC. In reality, the vast majority of miles my EV will do will not need any public charging infrastructure, at all. Meanwhile, 100% of the miles on…

> So how much did it cost the grid to add my car? $0. As you say, you are now "running the laundry and cooking" for hours at night to charge your car. How do you conclude this doesn't add cost to the grid?

It didn't take a single piece of new equipment to handle it. All of that equipment was built out to support my high demand loads, so it already existed and was ready to go. The power plants serving my house already had that capacity, the transformers could handle the load, all the lines were rated to handle far more power going to my house than the time I charge. Even if everyone on my street added an EV, it wouldn't take a single piece of new equipment to handle the load because all the equipment is already designed to handle more than that during other hours of the day. So long as people on average charge late at night or other off-peak times, it hasn't increased the peak loads on the grid at all, which is what they have to build to anyways.

Sure, I'm buying energy at those hours of the night, but that's a low time of energy usage overall. So much of a low usage, spot prices at those hours in my area routinely go negative, i.e. there's so much spare energy they're giving it away.

My REP makes money accepting electricity at negative rates for me to charge my car many nights of the year before even factoring in what I then pay them for it. Of course, this then figures into their overall rate contract they have for me, there's certainly hours in the day where my energy usage costs them more than what their contracted rate is for me.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#225

Post by leetharris » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 4:13 PM UTC

garyfirestorm wrote: post #221

outlace wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla Insurance is a kind of small moat. But I think Tesla is really banking on winning the automotive AI race. They currently don't seem to be winning, but that does appear to be their main gamble. If they can be the first to achieve level 4+ self-driving then they would definitely dominate regardless of charging infrastructure.

Level 4? Mercedes already beat them to level 3 https://www.theverge.com/2023/1/27/23572942/mercedes-drive-p...

Just like how Samsung beat Apple to face scanning technology.

Mercedes version is extremely limited and is only available on $100k+ cars with tons of additional hardware.

I have Tesla FSD. It is certainly overpriced, but it has genuinely been getting a lot better in the last year. When I first got it I was disappointed because it was so useless, now I use it probably 70%+ of my drives.

IMO Tesla is the closest to a mass-market version of the technology.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#226

Post by w0m » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 4:14 PM UTC

outlace wrote: post #204

dagmx wrote: post #112

I’m glad there finally seems to be a push to a better standard in North America. I’m really curious how this affects Teslas market share though going forward. Their supercharger network is why we continue with them despite countless other issues. It’s their biggest moat as far as I’m concerned. Now I have significantly more options, and my next car will not be a Tesla. I’m sure I’m not alone in that. Is the brand nam…

Tesla Insurance is a kind of small moat. But I think Tesla is really banking on winning the automotive AI race. They currently don't seem to be winning, but that does appear to be their main gamble. If they can be the first to achieve level 4+ self-driving then they would definitely dominate regardless of charging infrastructure.

As a current Tesla model 3 owner, when I bought it - there was nothing remotely similar on the market. Today, I see the SC network, AutoPilot and general-'fun' factor as the Tesla differentiators.

When I need to buy a new car in a few years (I honestly have no idea what kind of lifespan to expect), I'm looking forward to more options.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#227

Post by mywittyname » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 4:14 PM UTC

wsatb wrote: post #219

MattRix wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a big fan of Tesla myself, but surely if they figure out self driving that’ll make their cars relevant for the forseeable future? On top of that they seem to be able to make cars cheaper and more quickly than most of the incumbents.

The big players are just late to the game, but have been making cars for decades. They will easily overtake Tesla on number of EVs built as they transition. Tesla isn’t good at making cars. And every year my confidence in full self driving goes down. They are good at charging though and will print money doing that.

I wouldn't call the established players "late to the game" vis-a-vis self-driving. They've been dumping plenty into research and acquisition and are probably near parity with Telsa.

The perception of the larger players as laggards comes from the fact that they aren't as keen to lie consumers and investors. Their leadership doesn't enjoy the same privileges as Musk does.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#228

Post by FireBeyond » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 4:15 PM UTC

MattRix wrote: post #189

dahfizz wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The long term future of Tesla is a battery manufacturer and a charging network. Those are the two things they are good at. The cars themselves are quickly being beaten out by the larger players.

Not a big fan of Tesla myself, but surely if they figure out self driving that’ll make their cars relevant for the forseeable future? On top of that they seem to be able to make cars cheaper and more quickly than most of the incumbents.

That 'if' is a big one.

Musk said, in 2015: "Self-piloting cars are a solved problem." "I view it as a solved problem. We know exactly what we need to do and we will be there in a few years."

Last year, though, he was backpedaling: "Our focus is on solving the problem."

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#229

Post by jandrese » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 4:15 PM UTC

garyfirestorm wrote: post #221

outlace wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla Insurance is a kind of small moat. But I think Tesla is really banking on winning the automotive AI race. They currently don't seem to be winning, but that does appear to be their main gamble. If they can be the first to achieve level 4+ self-driving then they would definitely dominate regardless of charging infrastructure.

Level 4? Mercedes already beat them to level 3 https://www.theverge.com/2023/1/27/23572942/mercedes-drive-p...

The Mercedes system is a headline system. In that it was designed to generate headlines without actually accomplishing much.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#230

Post by minhazm » Tue, Jun 20, 2023, 4:15 PM UTC

traceroute66 wrote: post #206

dahfizz wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The long term future of Tesla is a battery manufacturer and a charging network. Those are the two things they are good at. The cars themselves are quickly being beaten out by the larger players.

> The long term future of Tesla is a battery manufacturer and a charging network. Those are the two things they are good at. Agree 100%. At present, Tesla really feels like a bit of a "Jack of all trades, master of none" job. I'm certainly no Elon fanboi, but I will happily state that there are clearly a number of things they do well (certain core components and the charging network). But the cars themselves as a who…

> At present, Tesla really feels like a bit of a "Jack of all trades, master of none" job.

That's an odd take. Model Y is the best selling vehicle in the world, and the second best selling vehicle in the US after the Ford F-150. It outsells the Corolla, Camry, Rav4, Civic, etc. Look at Mercedes, BMW and Audi sales, they've been plummeting because everyone is buying a Tesla instead.

They're also the leading battery storage company and their battery storage business has been growing like crazy.

> But the cars themselves as a whole. They feel like what they are. Cheaply built, but sold at a premium price.

This has become such a meme that I think anyone who says it has never driven a Tesla for more than a few hours. The interior quality is not on par with Mercedes/BMW and maybe there's a few panel gaps, but every other part of the car is significantly better. The handling, infotainment system, performance, efficiency, autopilot, maintenance, etc. A $50k Model Y competes with $70-80k cars, but has the interior of a $35k car. Most people are more than happy with that trade off and that's why it sells so well.