Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Modafinil and Startups

swombat.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 134 posts

Re: Modafinil and Startups

#81

Post by dtf »

I threw my last pack away last year, due to the emergence of a nasty side effect. I'd used it to power through a few insane projects, and had what I would call a decent "honeymoon period": get up at 4am, brain so groggy it was hard to tie my shoelaces, pop 100mg and within 30 minutes I'd be hyper-awake, clear headed and have laser sharp focus. The euphoria he mentions was nothing mild for me either, it really wasn't far off something like cocaine or ecstacy (minus accompanying loss of faculty).

Then gradually another feeling started accompanying it, which I can only describe as a "darkening" of my perception of the world, and strong sense of impending doom which became intrusive and hard to ignore (to the detriment of whatever task was at hand). It rendered me mildly depressed and highly anxious at the same time (although only for about 12-14 hours), and it did so consistently. I've never heard anyone else mention such an effect, but if anyone starts feeling a bit like that (and for me it was frankly a powerful and rather scary side-effect), consider whether the drug is to blame.

Re: Modafinil and Startups

#82

Post by driverdan »

dtf wrote: post #81

I threw my last pack away last year, due to the emergence of a nasty side effect. I'd used it to power through a few insane projects, and had what I would call a decent "honeymoon period": get up at 4am, brain so groggy it was hard to tie my shoelaces, pop 100mg and within 30 minutes I'd be hyper-awake, clear headed and have laser sharp focus. The euphoria he mentions was nothing mild for me either, it really wasn't…

I've read a few other stories similar to yours but it seems quite rare. They seemed to be from past recreational drug users who said the same thing about it acting similarly to cocaine. It would be an interesting avenue of research. I wonder if it's related to past cocaine use or if both drugs act on the same receptors certain individuals have higher levels of.

Re: Modafinil and Startups

#83

Post by ahoyhere »

TheSOB88 wrote: post #77
tene wrote: post #68

It's worth noting that not everyone responds to modafinil. If you've had genetic sequencing done (I had mine done by 23andme), you can predict your response by checking your Rs4680 status. http://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs4680 rs4680(G;G) carriers deprived of sleep respond quite well to 2x 100mg modafinil in terms of improved vigor and well-being, and maintained baseline performance with respect to executive functi…

Deficient in cortisol? That sounds very interesting... Isn't that the stress hormone? What kind of effects was that having on your life, other than the sleepiness?

Chiming in: cortisol IS "the stress hormone" but "stress" in the body sense is not the same thing as we think of "stress" in our daily lives.

With my chronic fatigue syndrome, there was a period where I had signs of "adrenal fatigue." My body would not produce sufficient cortisol and it REALLY showed. Symptoms included difficulty with physical activity, e.g. standing up or climbing stairs, an overwhelming agoraphobic-in-a-mosh-pit feeling in my head when faced with making any kind of decision, weighing facts, or even too much sensory input (e.g. talking to me while touching me or touching me while I tried to tie my shoes), etc. I would jerk away and have a sobbing meltdown because I couldn't cope. Among people with adrenal/cortisol issues, that is called a "crash".

So I have learned that sensory input, thinking, information processing, etc., are all types of stress on the system. Cortisol is required for the body and brain to "rise to the challenge" of almost every kind of effort, not just "I'm freaking out" type stress. In the case of the OP, staying awake was clearly a challenge his body could not rise to because it had insufficient cortisol on hand.

Re: Modafinil and Startups

#84

Post by georgieporgie »

Stuff I've tried over the course of the last year or so:

1) Caffeine pills, 200mg each, around $4 at Walmart. I wrote about this before. The effects are far superior to coffee. More consistent, no intestinal distress. I could take one upon waking, and another around lunchtime. I haven't been taking them daily for a few months now, and my daytime productivity is certainly lower.

2) Piracetam with Choline Citrate and, sometimes, Centrophenoxine. I would usually take around 2g Piracetam and 1 - 2g Choline in the morning, and repeat the dose in the afternoon. It definitely has some effect, but I can't say whether or not it's really a positive one. I suspect that the key (like what the author of this article mentioned) is to have your tasks laid out clearly. I definitely had a few weeks where I got a tremendous amount done, but it was early on in the project when I knew exactly what to do, and how to do it. Overall, I say the jury is out on whether or not Piracetam has a beneficial effect on me. It might increase crankiness, which I've never read about from anyone else.

3) 1,3 Dimethylamylamine (DMAA), one of the three primary ingredients in Jack3d (a very popular pre-workout supplement). I settled on 2x20mg DMAA pills and 1x200mg caffeine about 30 minutes before my workout. Initially, I would get a mild sense of euphoria while walking to the gym. After about three doses, the euphoria seems to have gone away, but I am still able to power through my weight lifting routine without hesitation or procrastination. I've done this every other day for about a month now, and as long as I'm getting sufficient sleep, the effects seem consistent. I generally take it at around 5pm, get to the gym at 5:30, work out for 60 - 90 minutes, go home, and eat. By 11pm I'm very sleepy, and I don't have any more trouble getting to sleep before midnight than I normally do. Like most Internet/information addicted people, I certainly have my nights of senselessly clicking until the wee hours, but this seems unaffected by the DMAA + caffeine. By the way, I wear a heart rate monitor when experimenting with this, and I don't think I would do any intense cardio while on it. I don't believe I'm anywhere near a problematic dose level, but I'll err on the side of caution.

4) Cardio. I started feeling depressed heading into the holidays, so I did 30 minutes of moderate cardio (140bpm heart rate) every day for two weeks (I typically do a lot of cycling in the summer months, but not so much in late fall through early spring). My depression lifted very quickly. In general, I'm of the opinion that 30 minutes daily or every other day will do quite a lot to increase general alertness throughout the day. I'm going to experiment with something even easier: taking a morning walk first thing in the morning every day.

Re: Modafinil and Startups

#85

Post by bluehat »

Just wanted to throw out there: please don't start any drug meant to impact the way you see the world without supervision (preferably, professional supervision). If something bad/weird happens, you might not be the first person to notice, especially if the response is emotional/perception based.

Re: Modafinil and Startups

#86

Post by tene »

TheSOB88 wrote: post #77
tene wrote: post #68

It's worth noting that not everyone responds to modafinil. If you've had genetic sequencing done (I had mine done by 23andme), you can predict your response by checking your Rs4680 status. http://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs4680 rs4680(G;G) carriers deprived of sleep respond quite well to 2x 100mg modafinil in terms of improved vigor and well-being, and maintained baseline performance with respect to executive functi…

Deficient in cortisol? That sounds very interesting... Isn't that the stress hormone? What kind of effects was that having on your life, other than the sleepiness?

Specifically, cortisol normally has a significant peak in the morning with waking, but I don't have that. My cortisol levels throughout the day are about flat, so normal for the evening, but not elevated in the morning. According to my doctor, this isn't too unusual, and should adjust up to normal levels after some months of supplementation. I just started supplements two weeks ago, and I'm definitely far more awake during the day and have a much easier time starting the day, but I haven't noticed any other significant changes, so I don't know anything else attributable to this. The only other changes I've noticed have been pretty minor, like an easier time exercising, and maybe a bit more irritable.

Re: Modafinil and Startups

#87

Post by jcampbell1 »

tene wrote: post #68

It's worth noting that not everyone responds to modafinil. If you've had genetic sequencing done (I had mine done by 23andme), you can predict your response by checking your Rs4680 status. http://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs4680 rs4680(G;G) carriers deprived of sleep respond quite well to 2x 100mg modafinil in terms of improved vigor and well-being, and maintained baseline performance with respect to executive functi…

Contrary to what some doctors tell you, it is really hard to fix a Vitamin D deficiency with dietary supplements. Go to a tanning salon and get 250,000IUs in 10 minutes. Of course this is going to be a bit weird if you are naturally dark skinned, but far more effective than taking pills.

Re: Modafinil and Startups

#88

Post by jerf »

jcampbell1 wrote: post #87
tene wrote: post #68

It's worth noting that not everyone responds to modafinil. If you've had genetic sequencing done (I had mine done by 23andme), you can predict your response by checking your Rs4680 status. http://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs4680 rs4680(G;G) carriers deprived of sleep respond quite well to 2x 100mg modafinil in terms of improved vigor and well-being, and maintained baseline performance with respect to executive functi…

Contrary to what some doctors tell you, it is really hard to fix a Vitamin D deficiency with dietary supplements. Go to a tanning salon and get 250,000IUs in 10 minutes. Of course this is going to be a bit weird if you are naturally dark skinned, but far more effective than taking pills.

Citation? I ask because I'm interested in making sure I'm healthy, not to just be a jerk on the internet, and if that's true I'm doing something wrong.

Re: Modafinil and Startups

#89

Post by DEinspanjer »

georgieporgie wrote: post #78
DEinspanjer wrote: post #43

I have taken 200mg of Modafinil daily for more than 5 years. Before it, I could go to sleep just about anywhere and just about any time. I could easily sleep for 12 to 14 hours a day if I let myself. When I had a work commute of about an hour and a half, I would have to pull over, sometimes four or five times, during the afternoon drive home to take cat naps because I couldn't keep my eyes open. It didn't matter how…

Very interesting! I'm curious: what's your fitness level, and does regular cardio (say, 30 minutes per day) have an effect? What about scheduling a 30 minute nap in the afternoon?

I'm not sedentary although I don't currently have an active fitness routine. I have maintained a weight and BMI within the typical recommended range with relatively no effort throughout my adult life. I tend to pace or walk a lot during the work day instead of sitting. Especially when thinking about problems. The last time I had a dedicated exercise routine before I was on medication tended to increase my afternoon drowsiness when I exercised in the morning before work, and had no noticeable change on it when I exercised in the evening.

I recently went through a month of physical therapy because of a back problem. That had me doing a light cardio workout 30 minutes per day three times a week (plus stretches and such on the off days). I was still taking my prescription during that time, so I can't say with certainty how that would have affected me, but there wasn't any noticeable change in my energy levels or sleep needs.

An afternoon nap or two is almost a necessity on any day I'm not taking my prescription. I can't say as I have ever tried specifically scheduling them into my work day though. Napping tends to be something I resort to when I can't shake off the drowsiness by walking or a snack.

Re: Modafinil and Startups

#90

Post by CamperBob »

swombat wrote: post #73
alinajaf wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've found it occasionally helpful, but it will in no way fix procrastination -- in fact you can procrastinate (by e.g. reading through top 100 random stories on reddit) In my (ahem) friends experiments with modafinil he reported the same thing, i.e. that he procrastinated with a vengeance. Last time this happened he managed to get through O'Reilly's _Mastering Algorithms in C_ in a single sitting, though it was co…

I got as far as having some really intensely focused world of warcraft sessions on modafinil... What a waste...

Not only that, but modafinil is also great when you absolutely, positively, have to win a flame war on the Internet.
Post reply on HN