Don’t Talk to Police (2012) [video] • Hacker News Board

Re: Don’t Talk to Police (2012) [video]

#151

Post by lambertsimnel » Sat, Jun 17, 2023, 9:18 PM UTC

HyperSane wrote: post #126

yieldcrv wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its interesting how generic “travel” advice is incompatible with so many countries the generic advice is “leave your passport locked at the hotel so you dont get it stolen by pickpockets” but also “never not have your passport on you because the local government wants to check it at any time” how do you all reconcile that on a day to day basis?

Keep your passport in a hidden pocket no easily reachable by pickpockets.

Although that helps to deal with pickpockets, can't thieves still demand your passport at gunpoint/knife-point, if they know the police require you to carry it?

Re: Don’t Talk to Police (2012) [video]

#152

Post by mplanchard » Sat, Jun 17, 2023, 9:21 PM UTC

thethimble wrote: post #149

tyingq wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is clear cut. Sort of. So you're pulled over for a brake light that's out. Then, they start asking "Where are you coming from?", "Why are you here?", "Do you live near here? (when they already have your address)", "If you're coming from that far, why don't you have luggage?" etc. I guess you can try to give as terse an answer as possible without coming across as rude? Saying nothing is your right, but they hav…

It seems like there’s a practical approach and a literalist approach here. I never understood the insistence of “don’t talk to the police” in relation to the questions above. If you can give the “right” answers, why wouldn’t you? I understand how this might be compromising fundamental rights, but at the same time I just want to get home. Is this wrong?

The problem is that you don’t know what the cop is doing. They might just be pulling you over for the reasons they stated, or they might be investigating some crime in the area and looking for suspicious people. Even a right or true answer can incriminate you in a certain light. Everything you say can potentially bite you in the ass later.

Better to be a little inconvenienced and take longer to get home than say something that can later be used in a court of law to implicate you in something you had no knowledge of.

I really want to emphasize that ALL of my police family gives this same advice.

Re: Don’t Talk to Police (2012) [video]

#153

Post by mplanchard » Sat, Jun 17, 2023, 9:23 PM UTC

green_man_lives wrote: post #146

tyingq wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is clear cut. Sort of. So you're pulled over for a brake light that's out. Then, they start asking "Where are you coming from?", "Why are you here?", "Do you live near here? (when they already have your address)", "If you're coming from that far, why don't you have luggage?" etc. I guess you can try to give as terse an answer as possible without coming across as rude? Saying nothing is your right, but they hav…

The real answer is that there is no actual way to win. You are at their mercy and it is really 100% up to what they choose to do.

While it is true that you are physically at their mercy, provided you survive your encounter with the police (not by any means a guarantee in this country), you CANNOT be incriminated in a court of law for invoking your right to remain silent. You CAN be incriminated in a court of law for literally anything else you say. The winning move is clearly not to give them any more ammunition than they already have.

Re: Don’t Talk to Police (2012) [video]

#154

Post by owenmarshall » Sat, Jun 17, 2023, 9:25 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #53

kmoser wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While you have the right to remain silent, I remember reading somewhere that you have to actively invoke that right (by stating something like "I invoke my 5th amendment right to remain silent") for your silence to be considered an invocation of that right, and not merely suspicious behavior, an implicit admission of guilt, or obstruction of justice. This is actually reprehensible, since invoking a right should mean…

> While you have the right to remain silent, I remember reading somewhere that you have to actively invoke that right (by stating something like "I invoke my 5th amendment right to remain silent") for your silence to be considered an invocation of that right, and not merely suspicious behavior, an implicit admission of guilt, or obstruction of justice. This is, as I ubderstand it, incorrect on multiple levels. First,…

> This is, as I ubderstand it, incorrect on multiple levels. First, all you need to do is shut up to exercise the right.

Incorrect. The police can continue interrogation if you sit quietly.

Also, it’s possible to revoke your assertion of the 5th after you have invoked it. If the police say you did, and you say you didn’t, who do you think the courts will believe?

As such, most legal advice I have heard is to simply say “I am not speaking until I get a lawyer.” It is unambiguous during interrogation, and it’ll stand up well during any suppression hearings.

> Second, no matter how you frame exercising the right, police can and will treat it as suspicious.

“You can beat the time but you can’t beat the ride.”

If you are in a position where you are invoking these rights you are already considered suspicious. You may be arrested. You might be tried. But keep your eye on the prize: your goal is to not get convicted.

Re: Don’t Talk to Police (2012) [video]

#155

Post by sneak » Sat, Jun 17, 2023, 9:26 PM UTC

HyperSane wrote: post #130

sneak wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cops are not inherently your foe From a game theoretical POV this is false; no good can come from speaking to them, and only bad can.

Even if your spouse or child was murdered and you know the identity of the killer? This is a very silly statement.

What benefit would I see from talking to the police in the scenario you describe?

Re: Don’t Talk to Police (2012) [video]

#156

Post by mplanchard » Sat, Jun 17, 2023, 9:28 PM UTC

boringuser2 wrote: post #150

mplanchard wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As noted in another thread, it is probably worth adding an explicit statement that you’re invoking your right to remain silent.

In that case, I'd amend it like so. While I would like to be helpful to your investigation, in order to ensure my rights are protected, I must invoke my right to be silent without a lawyer present. I appreciate your patience and understanding. I feel like there's some additional potential verbiage modification that can be made to make it more clear to the officer that you're trying to protect your rights and apologiz…

I think this is a reasonable approach. I would personally not add the additional apologies though, in case that winds up being spun in court later somehow.

Something like “I am invoking my 5th amendment right to remain silent and will not answer any questions without a lawyer present” is sufficient.

Most cops will be fine with this. They know the game a lot better than you. They’re not asking you questions to try to have a pleasant interaction with you. They’re fishing for things they can nab you on, and they know it. So, showing that you also know the game and clamming up isn’t necessarily unexpected or viewed as being rude.

Of course, you could always get a real prick who gets offended and tries to hassle you for it, in which case maybe your approach is the better one, but I suspect someone like that is going to cause problems regardless of how nicely you phrase it.

Re: Don’t Talk to Police (2012) [video]

#157

Post by boringuser2 » Sat, Jun 17, 2023, 9:30 PM UTC

mplanchard wrote: post #156

boringuser2 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that case, I'd amend it like so. While I would like to be helpful to your investigation, in order to ensure my rights are protected, I must invoke my right to be silent without a lawyer present. I appreciate your patience and understanding. I feel like there's some additional potential verbiage modification that can be made to make it more clear to the officer that you're trying to protect your rights and apologiz…

I think this is a reasonable approach. I would personally not add the additional apologies though, in case that winds up being spun in court later somehow. Something like “I am invoking my 5th amendment right to remain silent and will not answer any questions without a lawyer present” is sufficient. Most cops will be fine with this. They know the game a lot better than you. They’re not asking you questions to try to…

The reason why I don't like that approach is because it is the approach of a career criminal. The cops wouldn't be wrong to hassle you in this interaction.

An apology goes a long way. Reading some of your other posts, I fear you're too indignant. I'm not, I only want to do what would produce the best possible outcome. I don't care about anything else and I have no righteous sentiment in this scenario.

Re: Don’t Talk to Police (2012) [video]

#158

Post by ozim » Sat, Jun 17, 2023, 9:30 PM UTC

some_random wrote: post #99

hyperman1 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USA police is a bit of an exception here, being overly militarized, not kept in check by judges and politicians, and historically having a side job of fugitive slave catchers. Around the world, the core job of the police is more: Restore the public peace. They can forgive transgressions in public if you demonstrate further disturbance of peace will cease. They have to maintain a reasonable level of fairness, or t…

It's so funny reading this after scrolling past a bunch of Western Europeans (what I assume you mean by "around the world", since that's almost always what's meant) talking about how they can be arrested for not carrying identification on them at all times. As an American, it sounds like your judges and politicians haven't even tried to keep them in check.

Unfortunately it is a mixed bag in Western Europe.

As I am above 30 and I look as I am now, adult, well off person, I most likely would not even have to have ID on me even when I am not in my native country.

That said, when I was 20-something and had short haircut not having ID even in my native country could cause trouble.

There are also places where Police is quite easy going like medium cities around 100k. Mostly they have enough work not to care for small infractions and are not overworked with amount of shitty people.

In small cities it might be bad because they might not have anything to do so they would hunt you down on some silly stuff.

In big cities it might be bad because they have so many shitty people to deal with so they just assume you are shithead as well and treat you like one by default.

There are also places where rich people live and if you look like you don't belong, guess what, even if you look well off adult they might ask bunch of questions and Id if you don't look like you belong in the neighborhood.

Re: Don’t Talk to Police (2012) [video]

#159

Post by mplanchard » Sat, Jun 17, 2023, 9:33 PM UTC

boringuser2 wrote: post #157

mplanchard wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a reasonable approach. I would personally not add the additional apologies though, in case that winds up being spun in court later somehow. Something like “I am invoking my 5th amendment right to remain silent and will not answer any questions without a lawyer present” is sufficient. Most cops will be fine with this. They know the game a lot better than you. They’re not asking you questions to try to…

The reason why I don't like that approach is because it is the approach of a career criminal. The cops wouldn't be wrong to hassle you in this interaction. An apology goes a long way. Reading some of your other posts, I fear you're too indignant. I'm not, I only want to do what would produce the best possible outcome. I don't care about anything else and I have no righteous sentiment in this scenario.

It’s also the approach of most police and lawyers, i.e. anyone who is familiar with the criminal justice system. I’ve mentioned it elsewhere, but I got this advice from my relatives who are themselves police, both state and federal.

Edit: and the police would absolutely be wrong to hassle you in this situation! It’s a right. If you don’t exercise it for yourself, nobody will do it for you.

Re: Don’t Talk to Police (2012) [video]

#160

Post by tyingq » Sat, Jun 17, 2023, 9:39 PM UTC

mplanchard wrote: post #153

green_man_lives wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real answer is that there is no actual way to win. You are at their mercy and it is really 100% up to what they choose to do.

While it is true that you are physically at their mercy, provided you survive your encounter with the police (not by any means a guarantee in this country), you CANNOT be incriminated in a court of law for invoking your right to remain silent. You CAN be incriminated in a court of law for literally anything else you say. The winning move is clearly not to give them any more ammunition than they already have.

I think we all understand that part. It's the part where they can say anything happened and it's suddenly your word against theirs. So, irritating them can have consequences.

The tactic feels fine for an interrogation room, where's everything is on camera. In the outside world, it's trickier.