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Don’t Talk to Police (2012) [video]

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Re: Don’t Talk to Police (2012) [video]

#101

Post by culopatin »

savvo wrote: post #80
yieldcrv wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its interesting how generic “travel” advice is incompatible with so many countries the generic advice is “leave your passport locked at the hotel so you dont get it stolen by pickpockets” but also “never not have your passport on you because the local government wants to check it at any time” how do you all reconcile that on a day to day basis?

Your passport is not the only form of ID; a driving licence is easily kept in a wallet, pocket, money belt, …

A foreign drivers license is only valid when accompanied by a passport.

Re: Don’t Talk to Police (2012) [video]

#102

Post by rjh29 »

dudefeliciano wrote: post #77
netule wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's strange, but you must be able to identify yourself if you're over the age of 14 [1] in The Netherlands. Having lived in the US for 20 years now, this also seems a bit draconian to me, but I didn't think much of it while growing up over there. [1]: https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/paspoort-en-identit...

i would agree if someone is suspected of committing or witnessing a crime but to require ID for simply asking directions, and then getting arrested, seems like exactly the kind of overreach that gives a bad image to cops.

Chances are there is more to the story here. We're getting third-hand information after all.

Re: Don’t Talk to Police (2012) [video]

#103

Post by rjh29 »

paulpauper wrote: post #67
yieldcrv wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its interesting how generic “travel” advice is incompatible with so many countries the generic advice is “leave your passport locked at the hotel so you dont get it stolen by pickpockets” but also “never not have your passport on you because the local government wants to check it at any time” how do you all reconcile that on a day to day basis?

Traveling to foreign lands entails different rules and customs, which means new possible risks. Too many people think that their values or rules are universal. I think this is a major cognitive blind spot. It's like traveling to foreign lands with their different rules and customs is not such a smart idea, overall. Error on the side of caution.

> too many people think that their values or rules are universal.

That's why travelling is good?

Re: Don’t Talk to Police (2012) [video]

#104

Post by rjh29 »

AlecSchueler wrote: post #47

A friend of mine recently had quite a bad experience asking the police for help with directions as he was traveling through the Netherlands. He was trying to figure out where he was using the map on a bus stop and approached a nearby police car to ask for assistance. They demanded his ID which he was not carrying at the time. He explained that it was in his bag at the place where he was staying and they said he neede…

Carrying a passport is a legal requirement in many countries, especially common for tourists. But if I accidentally left it in my hotel? I don't think I would get arrested on the spot. Worst case they'd take me to the hotel so I could produce it.

I suspect there is more to this story - i.e. they had a reason to think he was an illegal immigrant or on drugs or something - of course that reason could be something racist or completely unfounded, but I presume they don't just arrest anyone who forgets their ID.

Re: Don’t Talk to Police (2012) [video]

#105

Post by kkielhofner »

Sniffnoy wrote: post #18
throwawaywu wrote: post #3

Also don't talk to federal agents. Lying to a federal agent is a felony, and often times they don't have enough evidence for the original crime, but by talking to you they get evidence of you lying

It's worse than that -- often their MO is to deliberately get people rattled so they say something false (that the FBI already knew was false), then charge them for that. It's stupid, but it's currently the [courts' interpretation of] the law. (The written law has a materiality requirement, but this has been interpreted so loosely as to be irrelevant.) https://www.popehat.com/2017/12/04/everybody-lies-fbi-editio...

With this law on the books they often operate under the same practice/advice you hear given to attorneys in court: "only ask questions you already know the answer to".

In many/most cases if they're asking questions they already know the truth behind at least some of them. They are attempting to leverage you into cooperating against co-conspirators or at least be able to hit you with a felony for misleading/false statements in the event the original investigation doesn't pan out to charges.

Re: Don’t Talk to Police (2012) [video]

#106

Post by ccooffee »

jcranmer wrote: post #68
dragonwriter wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While you have the right to remain silent, I remember reading somewhere that you have to actively invoke that right (by stating something like "I invoke my 5th amendment right to remain silent") for your silence to be considered an invocation of that right, and not merely suspicious behavior, an implicit admission of guilt, or obstruction of justice. This is, as I ubderstand it, incorrect on multiple levels. First,…

> First, all you need to do is shut up to exercise the right. Actually, as I understand it, SCOTUS has said that merely being silent is not the same as invoking your Fifth Amendment right to remain silent. I think this jurisprudence is complete bananapants, but the argument is that you have to explicitly and unambiguously invoke your Fifth Amendment right for it to kick in, and being silent isn't an unambiguous invoc…

Correct.

You MUST EXPLICITLY invoke your fifth amendment right against self-incrimination.

(Okay, there may be some edge cases where invoking the fifth is implied, but SCOTUS has merely acknowledged that these edge cases could exist, but to my knowledge has never given rules for when it applies. Better safe than sorry.)

e: see Salinas v Texas[0] for example

[0] https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/12-246#writing...

Re: Don’t Talk to Police (2012) [video]

#107

Post by kkielhofner »

dccoolgai wrote: post #91

Recent case in point: Walt Nauta, who got charged along with Trump. Had he just kept his mouth shut, he probably wouldn't have been charged, but they got him dead-to-rights saying stuff they're pretty sure they can prove he was lying about. And this is it "working the way it should". The darker version is a Federal Agent says you told him something you didn't even say because it helps the case he's building. He asks…

> The darker version is a Federal Agent says you told him something you didn't even say because it helps the case he's building. He asks you to repeat it on record and when you balk, he threatens you with a felony for "lying to a federal agent".

This is shown in a scene from "Wolf of Wall Street"[0]. In this case the main agent gets his partner to come to within earshot of Jordan Belfort and asks Jordan to repeat his bribery offer. Testimony from one FBI agent is good, testimony from two is better.

[0] - https://youtu.be/3IKbkjs8xd0?t=46

Re: Don’t Talk to Police (2012) [video]

#108

Post by wegwerp »

netule wrote: post #50
AlecSchueler wrote: post #47

A friend of mine recently had quite a bad experience asking the police for help with directions as he was traveling through the Netherlands. He was trying to figure out where he was using the map on a bus stop and approached a nearby police car to ask for assistance. They demanded his ID which he was not carrying at the time. He explained that it was in his bag at the place where he was staying and they said he neede…

It's strange, but you must be able to identify yourself if you're over the age of 14 [1] in The Netherlands. Having lived in the US for 20 years now, this also seems a bit draconian to me, but I didn't think much of it while growing up over there. [1]: https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/paspoort-en-identit...

Honestly, lots of us Dutchies leave the house from time to time without ID. I don’t even think to carry it when I go running, or to the gym. And most of the time if you interact with the police while out without your ID it isn’t really a problem.

But that is of course only reliably true if you’re Dutch. The right kind of Dutch, too. Autochtoon used to be considered the polite term. (I always found it rather menacing personally.)

If you have contact with a police agent and you’re speaking English or are brown, yeah, better have that ID.

Of course anyone can be in the wrong place at the wrong time - maybe the agents the OP’s friend approached were conducting surveillance and interpreted an approach by a stranger without ID as suspicious under the circumstances. But I have also simply seen lots of differences in how police decide to enforce the law based on whom they are dealing with.

Re: Don’t Talk to Police (2012) [video]

#109

Post by avgcorrection »

some_random wrote: post #99
hyperman1 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USA police is a bit of an exception here, being overly militarized, not kept in check by judges and politicians, and historically having a side job of fugitive slave catchers. Around the world, the core job of the police is more: Restore the public peace. They can forgive transgressions in public if you demonstrate further disturbance of peace will cease. They have to maintain a reasonable level of fairness, or t…

It's so funny reading this after scrolling past a bunch of Western Europeans (what I assume you mean by "around the world", since that's almost always what's meant) talking about how they can be arrested for not carrying identification on them at all times. As an American, it sounds like your judges and politicians haven't even tried to keep them in check.

> a bunch of Western Europeans (what I assume […] As an American, it sounds like your judges and politicians haven't even tried to keep them in check.

Wait, what? You don’t know if this is a Western European thing but you just took that “from the rest of the world”? I guess I could do the same: (1) I’m not from America (the majority here), (2) I haven’t experienced bully police asking for id, so (3) I’ll just assume that that’s an American thing. How funny!

Re: Don’t Talk to Police (2012) [video]

#110

Post by _dain_ »

Aerbil313 wrote: post #6
wiseowise wrote: post #5

[flagged]

Do you know anything about other countries? I’d love to hear.

UK version of Miranda warning is

>You do not have to say anything. But it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something that you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence.

More info: https://www.libertyhumanrights.org.uk/advice_information/pol...

This video is one of my bugbears. It gets posted every now and then on Reddit and other places, upvoted a lot, and nobody in the comments points out how dangerous it is to rely on some of this advice outside of the US. You can really land yourself in trouble if you aren't aware of the differences between American legal system and your home country's, even when they're both based on common law. Just another side effect of American cultural imperialism.

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