One of the worst write ups trying to drum up "support" for a product known to hallucinate. I couldn't imagine this could land up here!
I’m an ER doctor. Here’s how I’m already using ChatGPT to help treat patients
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Re: I’m an ER doctor. Here’s how I’m already using ChatGPT to help treat patients
#92Earlier quoted context omitted.
My takeaway isn't how useful ChatGPT is, but how useless the doctor is, and by extension, how poorly the the field of medicine is that it doesn't adequately train doctors to have better bedside manner. Regardless of my state of agitation, I would most definitely not want to be read a script prepared by an AI. In fact, were I to find out after the fact, I'd be even more incensed.
I passed this article & discussion on to physician spouse, who would specifically like me to reply to this comment: "You are being very emotional." Digging deeper (as the comment above alone isn't worthy of HN, IMO): "People believe what they want to believe because of small sample sizes. When there isn't a black & white answer people go back to their personal experience, which is limited. They will not be right in t…
This sort of response certainly seems indicative of a doctor with horrifically bad bedside manner. Families tend to be emotional when the health of their loved ones is at stake. I'm skeptical that a chatbot would help someone who can't grasp that.
Re: I’m an ER doctor. Here’s how I’m already using ChatGPT to help treat patients
#93Earlier quoted context omitted.
I’m really not trying to be inflammatory when I say this, but highly technical professions that have intense training requirements for entry attract a disproportionate amount of people with social development issues, ranging from intense self-diagnosed “introversion” to full blown developmental disorders like autism/aspergers. There’s plenty of this in software development, but medicine takes it to the next level. Th…
There is a kernel of truth to this, disproportionate sure, but I think majority is a bit over the top. There are plenty in medicine aware of this, antisocial behavior and toxicity in general, there’s a lot of crying that goes on from medical school throughout training. You can easily have a rich social life throughout training but the process doesn’t effectively filter out the trainwrecks either.
> You can easily have a rich social life throughout training
This is the complete opposite of my experience, and I’d be very surprised if there were any med schools where this was legitimately possible. When my wife was in med school she had about 40 hours of course work per week, and the curriculum was so dense that she spent nearly all the rest of her time studying. She worked (a job) 10 hours a week during med school and we’d be lucky to have a couple of hours of dedicated time together per week. Most of the time we spent together was when I’d help her with revising. During semester breaks she had mandatory placements to complete, and her school operated classes on all public holidays. It only eased for a couple of months between academic years (when she also had a non-trivial study workload to get through). During her residency this got worse when she had irregular 18+ hour shifts to get through, and just wanted to spend most of her time at home sleeping. This was the same experience that all of her peers had, so either you or my wife must have had an atypical academic experience, or you have a substantially different definition of “rich social life” than I do.
> There are plenty in medicine aware of this, antisocial behavior and toxicity in general
To be clear I’m not referring to toxicity necessarily, or antisocial as in being destructive or disruptive. I mean averse to social settings, and not capable of or interested in participating in normal pro social behaviour. Nearly all of her peers at med school had these characteristics, if somebody told me that 90% of doctors had some form of autism, I really wouldn’t have a hard time believing it. This is very similar to the experience I had in all of my maths, physics and comp sci papers at college, and to my subsequent experience working in software development. Granted it’s not quite as severe in that setting, but the poorly socialised software engineer stereotype didn’t just materialise out of thin air.
People do find these highly contrived LLM outputs to be insightful for their “perspectives” on compassion or empathy, which is totally unrelatable for me, but this just seems like a reasonably plausible explanation.
Re: I’m an ER doctor. Here’s how I’m already using ChatGPT to help treat patients
#94I'm having a hard time buying this anecdote. Not even the bit where its implied that multiple people read the same script multiple times and that worked for soothing people, but the actual content of the before and after; the gpt version doesn't explain it any differently and the 'compassionate' writing was absurd. My most charitable interpretation is that the anecdote is true but the article itself was written by so…
"Side note; does anyone actually think that chat gpt succeeds at rewriting things 'compassionately' or 'more intelligently'?" Often, sure. A few days ago I asked ChatGPT about a situation that needed compassion and wisdom. I thought it did way better than the 5 or 6 people I had talked to about it. https://chat.openai.com/share/2dd26347-3fbd-483f-b567-21c040... (ignore the first question, which was silly) FYI, we're…
Good luck with the dog, and thank you for sharing that. I agree that was a reasonable response but I may be biased because I recently had a conversation along these lines and the hit most of the same beats. It is certainly free of the defects I mentioned. Thank you so much for the counter example, its perfect.
I wonder if it is significant that you didn't ask it for a specific kind of response?
Re: I’m an ER doctor. Here’s how I’m already using ChatGPT to help treat patients
#95I’d say doc should be expecting a visit from the FDA shortly about his unlicensed medical device.
The FDA regulates bringing a device to market commercially, doctors can use regular COTS software.
Re: I’m an ER doctor. Here’s how I’m already using ChatGPT to help treat patients
#96This really feels farcical, and kind of like vc bros hyping up a product. Considering this was a serious issue of life and death of a patient, it was surprising how it read like a prank or like the scene from Harold and Kumar, where Kumar plays a fake doctor and saves an ER patient through sheer luck. I know some doctors are full of baloney but c'mon. I really hope maybe that we create better doctors that have a lot…
Ironically, your comment about the state of doctors is quite lacking in empathy for the doctors themselves.
Regardless of whether or not this article is a fake, I think you don't quite understand how overworked most doctors are, and how little time they have been given per patient to take care of what needs to be done.
Re: I’m an ER doctor. Here’s how I’m already using ChatGPT to help treat patients
#97I'm having a hard time buying this anecdote. Not even the bit where its implied that multiple people read the same script multiple times and that worked for soothing people, but the actual content of the before and after; the gpt version doesn't explain it any differently and the 'compassionate' writing was absurd. My most charitable interpretation is that the anecdote is true but the article itself was written by so…
I’m really not trying to be inflammatory when I say this, but highly technical professions that have intense training requirements for entry attract a disproportionate amount of people with social development issues, ranging from intense self-diagnosed “introversion” to full blown developmental disorders like autism/aspergers. There’s plenty of this in software development, but medicine takes it to the next level. Th…
I've been in situations where reviewing a selection of sentiments as presented by hallmark cards could have improved my response so I can imagine something like this happening.
But this article specifically convinces me that it was not written by some one with those experiences.
Also, I've got a friend who started med school in their thirties, hearing about it from him I do not think your supposition is particularly inflammatory. I went through an engineering program which was time consuming and generally considered challenging and I still wonder at what sort of internal alchemy keeps proto-doctors in the program and not doing literally anything else with their time.
Re: I’m an ER doctor. Here’s how I’m already using ChatGPT to help treat patients
#98This really feels farcical, and kind of like vc bros hyping up a product. Considering this was a serious issue of life and death of a patient, it was surprising how it read like a prank or like the scene from Harold and Kumar, where Kumar plays a fake doctor and saves an ER patient through sheer luck. I know some doctors are full of baloney but c'mon. I really hope maybe that we create better doctors that have a lot…
Putting aside the question of if the linked is fake, I don't necessarily fault medical workers for handling their work dryly. Those doctors and nurses and technicians have to deal with all manners of disgust, biohazards, sadness, and most significantly death each and every single day. I cannot in good faith demand them to treat everyone with empathy, that might as well be psychological torture for the medical workers…
I understand this point. Many doctors I see always being very social, and smiling in public even though they have seen horrors in the ER room, etc. I kind of get a bit of the callous, emotionally stable, and always cheery, positive nature but isn't too emotionally deep (think of the doctor in movies, where they give the bad news with a straight face) they need to have to be able to operate like a robot, ironically enough.
But, maybe instead of what this article proposes, we do the opposite, we make our doctors more empathetic, and leave the robot to do the grunt work, machinery, surgery, etc. A lot of comments are saying they find the empathy useful. I'm not sure if I will be able to tell if someone sends me a crafted message, but I don't like the idea of a message being sent by ChatGPT that is meant to artificially create empathy, to me it's fake empathy.
This is all theory, but I don't think robots creating fake empathy would resonate with humans once this is widespread. Maybe it creates a sort of disconnection, where people just blatantly avoid falling for text messages and paragraphs that sound empathetic.
There are some similarities too with the movie Big-Hero 6, and the Bayman robot that was created as a care robot. Initially, Hiro is very annoyed by it, because of it's rote "artificial empathy" voice and messages. But it's intelligence is what brings him around, when it understands things like contexts better.
Re: I’m an ER doctor. Here’s how I’m already using ChatGPT to help treat patients
#99Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Side note; does anyone actually think that chat gpt succeeds at rewriting things 'compassionately' or 'more intelligently'?" Often, sure. A few days ago I asked ChatGPT about a situation that needed compassion and wisdom. I thought it did way better than the 5 or 6 people I had talked to about it. https://chat.openai.com/share/2dd26347-3fbd-483f-b567-21c040... (ignore the first question, which was silly) FYI, we're…
Good luck with the dog, and thank you for sharing that. I agree that was a reasonable response but I may be biased because I recently had a conversation along these lines and the hit most of the same beats. It is certainly free of the defects I mentioned. Thank you so much for the counter example, its perfect. I wonder if it is significant that you didn't ask it for a specific kind of response?
Likewise, thanks for scoring a point for humanity. :) It's rare to get someone on the internet to appreciate a counterpoint.
Yes it probably helps that I didn't ask it for advice, rather than just kind of talk to it as if it was a sounding board. I guess I'm weird that way, in that I feel it is important to talk to an AI like it is human and has feelings (saying everything from "please" to "wow that was amazing, thanks"), even if only for myself.
But I've become convinced it gets better responses. Which isn't altogether surprising, if you think about how LLMs work.
Re: I’m an ER doctor. Here’s how I’m already using ChatGPT to help treat patients
#100This really feels farcical, and kind of like vc bros hyping up a product. Considering this was a serious issue of life and death of a patient, it was surprising how it read like a prank or like the scene from Harold and Kumar, where Kumar plays a fake doctor and saves an ER patient through sheer luck. I know some doctors are full of baloney but c'mon. I really hope maybe that we create better doctors that have a lot…
I believe it. I've used chatgpt for inspiration on how to craft difficult messages with empathy. I've been managing people for a long time and could've done it independently, but it's good to get help. It can be tough to express empathy when exhausted after a long day of urgent demands and responsibilities. This is no different than asking chatgpt to draft code that I could otherwise write from scratch. It's like hav…
Now it feels kind of neat, and maybe works when others are reading well crafted messages. What happens when everyone has a bot, and a bot is talking to a bot, because I for one, don't want to be sent or fall for emotionally manipulative messages, or that try to sound empathetic, maybe even are empathetic.
When this type of messaging is so widespread, I wonder what will happen. I think people will ignore most of this type of messaging. Maybe we'll evolve to not be emotional anymore, when emotions are everywhere? I don't know, but an interesting hypothetical.