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San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep homeless from using it

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Re: San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep homeless from using it

#111

Post by JumpCrisscross »

FireBeyond wrote: post #97
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“A Republic, if you can keep it.” The quote came to mind while I listened to a Radiolab episode on police surveillance [1]. We usually take it to mean opposing tyranny, even when convenient. But that might be too simple. For every Patrick Henry there are dozens who prefer not to die. If we let the security situation devolve out of sympathy, or inequality increase in pursuit of efficiency, those people will snap and p…

I realize you say "I'm not suggesting we re-criminalise homelessness"... however in many people's eyes, there's a "but" there that if not suggesting it certainly implies "but we should certainly consider it". To which I say: We have the fifth highest prison population per capita (behind El Salvador, Rwanda, Turkmenistan and Cuba), and you want to consider adding potentially another 600,000 (40% more) people to that p…

> however in many people's eyes, there's a "but" there that if not suggesting it certainly implies "but we should certainly consider it"

Sorry and thank you. I'll be more blunt: we should not criminalize homelessness, putting these people in jail for being poor or mentally ill or addicted beyond agency is inhumane, and maybe if we deal with this problem we'll be less afraid of dumping the millions of Americans wrongly jailed and withheld from career development by the state back into the world.

If we continue to provide zero solutions between doing nothing and jailing, however, jail it will be. That's the political reality I'm pointing to.

Re: San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep homeless from using it

#112

Post by warent »

nubb wrote: post #25

everyone acting so shocked here probably hasn’t had your home robbed, your car windows broken, or been assaulted and/or robbed by a drugged out bum. at some point enough is enough and they gotta go. i think it’s a juvenile attitude to look down your nose at the endless victims and tell them to just be more understanding of the hardships the homeless face.

Well I've had my car broken into, and I've been assulted twice by homeless people--once spat on, and once physically jumped/attacked. (Edit: also the more I think about it, the more I remember other scary/dangerous incidences)

Nope, none of this changes my feelings, and certainly does not grant me "depravity tokens" that I'm now allowed to cash-in. "Hello, I have five depravity-tokens from being treated badly by a homeless person, I'd like to spend it on treating them badly in return."

Re: San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep homeless from using it

#113

Post by michaelt »

warent wrote: post #98
michaelt wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what are you using your wifi for? Pretty sure it's more a matter of location. Normal people only masturbate in the privacy of their own homes. I know San Francisco is a very progressive city, but I don't think they're yet ready to embrace homeless people jerking it on the sidewalk outside the library.

I agree that we need to be mindful about our approach. Homeless people can't be given unlimited luxuries because we can't afford it as a society. That being said, your comment comes across as reductive to the homeless population as being nothing more than a snide, tongue-in-cheek joke. This "Normal people" messaging is what allows us to abstract homeless people into this "other" group, which is dangerous and inhumane…

But was my comment more snide and reductive than your "okay, and what are you using your wifi for" quip?

I mean, I get that you want to see homeless people better supported. But championing their right to masturbate in public is I think going to get your cause more opponents than supporters.

Re: San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep homeless from using it

#114

Post by amanaplanacanal »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #53
Hermitian909 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who volunteers with the homeless a lot I mostly agree, but I will take the other side for a moment: It's very hard to a voter base who feel financially squeezed that their taxes should be going to people who, usually, are not holding down a job. They're "doing everything right" and feel the government is robbing Peter to pay Paul as it were. There are a lot of sophisticated answers we can give as to why th…

“A Republic, if you can keep it.” The quote came to mind while I listened to a Radiolab episode on police surveillance [1]. We usually take it to mean opposing tyranny, even when convenient. But that might be too simple. For every Patrick Henry there are dozens who prefer not to die. If we let the security situation devolve out of sympathy, or inequality increase in pursuit of efficiency, those people will snap and p…

It would be cheaper to house them than to jail them.

Re: San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep homeless from using it

#116

Post by michaelt »

FireBeyond wrote: post #110
michaelt wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the average home in San Francisco sells for $1.2 million, and the average home in Willard, New Mexico sells for $120,000 is it really so dreadful to help ten times as many homeless people?

Tell us all about Willard's booming economy and the wide swathes of open jobs available to new residents there... ... in a town of 250 people, where nearly a third of the population lives below the poverty line. The ONLY people that benefits is the residents of SF or wherever, that successfully managed to "make it someone else's problem".

The homeless people who get a roof over their heads don't benefit from it? Really?

Re: San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep homeless from using it

#117

Post by scarmig »

pfffr wrote: post #80
0xB31B1B wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Library wifi is not a homeless service. An 24 hour open seat on a subway is not a homeless service. Parks where children play is not a homeless service. Public goods being overtaken by an antisocial drug users in the name of homeless support is not progressive.

Libraries are public services. Subways are public services. Parks are public spaces. If you are so progressive you would be interested in expanding social service spending to help people out of homelessness. This would solve your (personal) problem with homelessness.

San Francisco already spends half a billion dollars per year on homeless services, which comes to 50k-75k per homeless individual per year. Is there reason to believe that more spending would actually fix homelessness, when most other cities spend less and have less of a homeless problem?

Re: San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep homeless from using it

#118

Post by throwaway22032 »

notaustinpowers wrote: post #12

Every day I start to believe more and more that people won't stop with homelessness until every homeless person is dead. "Emergency housing is a drain on taxpayer dollars." "Job placement is taking jobs away from locals." "Soup kitchens are another drain on taxpayer money." "Homeless services are a waste of money." It makes me sick how people can act when it comes to the homeless population when so many of us are jus…

It would probably illuminate the situation to realise that no-one I know personally is "1 bad month away from being homeless".

I don't think that this is unusual.

Staving off the obvious retort - I don't have some sort of silver spoon upbringing, my parents and childhood peers are supermarket workers, bus drivers etc.

People I know and socialise with just spend within their means, live in places that aren't hilariously expensive, have an emergency fund etc. They plan their lives around being able to provide for themselves and not burdening others.

Very few people I know could afford to live a normal life somewhere like SF.

I don't think that homeless people are subhuman as some people here mention, that's clearly a strawman. But I don't consider them to be my peers either. Their life choices, both past and present, are completely baffling to me.

Re: San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep homeless from using it

#119

Post by sangnoir »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #107
sangnoir wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about shoring up the social safety net like other developed countries? The length at which Americans go to ignore the homeless (until they are in close physical proximity) is astounding. And most "solutions" are to keep the homeless out of sight without doing anything about their circumstances.

> How about shoring up the social safety net like other developed countries? Genuinely curious: how is the mental-health and drug addiction nexus dealt with when one has an unwilling participant?

Participate in what exactly? You won't find many takers if the intervention is automatic institutionalization. There are a lot of areas the US has not explored between commiting people to mental asylums and letting them roam the streets.

Re: San Francisco library turning off WiFi at night to keep homeless from using it

#120

Post by panda888888 »

notaustinpowers wrote: post #12

Every day I start to believe more and more that people won't stop with homelessness until every homeless person is dead. "Emergency housing is a drain on taxpayer dollars." "Job placement is taking jobs away from locals." "Soup kitchens are another drain on taxpayer money." "Homeless services are a waste of money." It makes me sick how people can act when it comes to the homeless population when so many of us are jus…

Compassion fatigue is real. Have you lived near a large homeless encampment? Not one guy with a sleeping bag, but the type of big encampment with 20+ people?

We're talking multiple stabbings/shootings per month, people shitting on the sidewalk, a significant risk that you'll be be harassed in an unpredictable way (e.g. a homeless person swinging a hammer and screaming in a way that's impossible to deescalate), high risk of fires or exploding RVs, and even mundane/"harmless" things like methheads uprooting literally every flower from your garden (this happened to me).

We're talking about a situation where these people are literally terrorizing neighborhoods. There will be maybe 50 homeless people and ~5000+ neighbors, and that small group can ruin the place to the extent that kids can no longer walk to school.

After these experiences, I'm a lot more skeptical about homeless services. I don't want them to die, but at some point forced drug treatment or forced incarceration would be more humane than providing "services" and letting them all OD and die on the streets.

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