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Karl Guttag on Apple Vision Pro (Part 1)

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Re: Karl Guttag on Apple Vision Pro (Part 1)

#71

Post by cassianoleal »

the_gipsy wrote: post #41
mjamesaustin wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What could the original iPad do that an iPhone couldn't? Basically zero, other than have a larger screen. Different screen size ends up making a significant difference in how you use a product. Vision Pro presents theoretically unlimited size and number of screens to do categorically the same kind of things you'd do on an iPad/iPhone/Mac. As someone who likes to work with multiple monitors, at the least I see this en…

So that iPad made reading or watching videos better, when you don't wanna use a laptop/pc/tv. Give me one thing that those goggles let me do or do better right now.

Arguably, the same. You can watch videos in what amounts to a very large screen, with ambiance added to the backdrop, anywhere. Watching videos on a plane or train will get a massive boost.

Given that an iPad Pro with max specs is about 2/3 of the announced price of the goggles, I think the goggles are in fact at an advantage.

Re: Karl Guttag on Apple Vision Pro (Part 1)

#72

Post by cassianoleal »

alpark3 wrote: post #36

Speaking in terms of eye health, does it matter if the screen is right in front of my eye if the focal length is farther? Or is it still unhealthy?

I won't pretend to actually know the answer but I've seen many people saying that VR can improve myopia due to the distant focal point.

Assuming that's true, I imagine this would have similar effects.

Re: Karl Guttag on Apple Vision Pro (Part 1)

#73

Post by ladberg »

kitsunesoba wrote: post #40
satvikpendem wrote: post #7

Anyone else worried that Vision Pro will simply be a large iPad and not macOS like, ie closed app store and not geared towards productivity? The fact that to run VSCode you need to mirror your own Mac simply boggles the mind, it's like Apple wants to cut off the potential of the device at the knees simply to continue selling services.

Even if it could run VS Code directly, VS Code would be at a disadvantage to other editors because native visionOS apps appear to use entirely vector UI and text to ensure sharpness and readability in a wider variety of conditions, which I don't see third party UI frameworks of any sort being able to hook into easily.

I don't think web apps like VSCode will be at a disadvantage. If they're doing "normal" web rendering and not rolling their own canvas renderer like Google Docs then it should just work fine.

Re: Karl Guttag on Apple Vision Pro (Part 1)

#74

Post by kitsunesoba »

ladberg wrote: post #73
kitsunesoba wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if it could run VS Code directly, VS Code would be at a disadvantage to other editors because native visionOS apps appear to use entirely vector UI and text to ensure sharpness and readability in a wider variety of conditions, which I don't see third party UI frameworks of any sort being able to hook into easily.

I don't think web apps like VSCode will be at a disadvantage. If they're doing "normal" web rendering and not rolling their own canvas renderer like Google Docs then it should just work fine.

If they're running on top of the system WebKit yes, otherwise vector rendering will need to be implemented in Chromium/Blink.

Re: Karl Guttag on Apple Vision Pro (Part 1)

#75

Post by losvedir »

Aerbil313 wrote: post #9

I’ve just learned the Vergence-accommodation conflict [1]. VR/AR, from now on is a no-go for me. It never came to my mind that those headsets had such a problem. We’re talking about an accommodation distance of what, three centimeters? I’m already on my way to reverse my myopia, sorry, I can’t take an even more unhealthy visual environment [3]. Half of the world is already on its way to be myopic by 2050 according to…

No, you misunderstand. The lenses between your eyes and the screens will give it a focal distance of something like ~2 meters. So from an eye health / focus point of view it will be like staring at a wall 2 meters away all day (which is possibly better than staring at a computer screen .5m away!). This is why nearsighted people still need some sort of accommodation in VR.

The thing to realize is there's two different kinds of focusing: the first is the one everyone thinks of which is how your two eyes work together. They point together when focusing close, and spread apart when focusing far. But separately each eye also can focus individually. Try covering one eye and holding up a finger at arms' length for your other eye to focus on. Then switch to focusing on the wall with that eye, and back. You'll feel your eye muscle making the adjustment.

In the real world these two kinds of focuses normally operate in sync. If you want to look far, you'll normally both point your eyes further apart and adjust the individual eye focus for distance, and when you want to look close, you'll point your eyes kind of together and adjust each eye for near focus.

But in VR, your "focal distance" is fixed at the generally comfortable ~2m I mentioned. However, because it's a 3D world you can look near and far, and in that case you'll change how your eyes point but not the other kind of focus.

So I'm not sure to what extent that causes problems, if any, but it's different from staring at something a few centimeters away.

Re: Karl Guttag on Apple Vision Pro (Part 1)

#76

Post by kitsunesoba »

ohgodplsno wrote: post #58
krger wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Apps will not have direct access to the cameras A restriction for which I am thankful. >Vision Pro is destined to keep being a toy fully steered by Apple. I trust Apple a lot more than I trust the "let's figure out how to fingerprint users based on how they scroll and other metrics and use it to sell ads" crowd. >You can't access eye tracking, A restriction for which I am thankful. >so say good bye to foveated rende…

Yes, yes, we know some Apple users are unable to see past the "you can't be trusted" that Apple keeps violently stabbing in your brain, you'll live in a company town with company stores and company credits and you'll be happy about it. Now can the adults use their devices? The Vision Pro does not provide foveated rendering if you do not go through the Apple renderer. There's some extremely vague wording regarding Met…

> we know some Apple users are unable to see past the "you can't be trusted" that Apple keeps violently stabbing in your brain

It's third party devs doing that, not Apple. They've proven themselves unworthy of trust more times than can be counted. Where there is room for abuse, abuse will happen. We might be numb to it, but it happens all the time on desktop operating systems. Examples include Adobe putting files in corners of the system it has no business touching, practically every modern AAA game installing rootkits and scanning our filesystems, and until just a few years ago Dropbox installing a kernel extension on macOS.

The only devs that deserve any trust are FOSS devs but there isn't good FOSS software for every use case.

Re: Karl Guttag on Apple Vision Pro (Part 1)

#77

Post by wkat4242 »

satvikpendem wrote: post #7

Anyone else worried that Vision Pro will simply be a large iPad and not macOS like, ie closed app store and not geared towards productivity? The fact that to run VSCode you need to mirror your own Mac simply boggles the mind, it's like Apple wants to cut off the potential of the device at the knees simply to continue selling services.

Well this is pretty clear to me, it's definitely running only iOS apps natively, I don't see why they would open the app store for it as it's a huge goldmine for them.

Apple still thinks people can use an iPad for all their work though my experience at work is very different (and I managed a large fleet of mobiles)

Re: Karl Guttag on Apple Vision Pro (Part 1)

#78

Post by wkat4242 »

satvikpendem wrote: post #34
drewbeck wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not geared towards productivity? The fact that to run VSCode Productivity !== coding. Coding is a subset of productivity, but most jobs do not require coding. I get that you want this to be something else, but a lot of people are incredibly productive on iPads today, and adding the ability to mirror your MacBooks screen means that this platform absolutely has a future in productivity. HN has a lot of this attitude…

That's great for those people but yes, for devs, it's not a real replacement for a MacBook, even though it literally has the same chip inside. It's a shame.

And very importantly: In most enterprises, most MacBook users are either graphics people or devs. Because they're the only communities that really have a legit reason to want them (especially the devs because iOS development just needs a mac).

Most others just have to put up with Windows whether they like it or not (working in IT for a company with 120.000 PCs and 600 Macs). And yes most companies are like us.

"The same chip inside" doesn't mean that much though. This one pushes a LOT more pixels at really high framerates, has to handle realtime input from a ton of cameras and do live algorithms on their data etc. I think the whole realtime usecase on a more open OS like the Mac? Very hard to make that work.

So I see where they're coming from, sure. But productivity wise, iOS apps are not great. Needing a Mac to connect to isn't either considering the price of each.

Re: Karl Guttag on Apple Vision Pro (Part 1)

#79

Post by satvikpendem »

wkat4242 wrote: post #77
satvikpendem wrote: post #7

Anyone else worried that Vision Pro will simply be a large iPad and not macOS like, ie closed app store and not geared towards productivity? The fact that to run VSCode you need to mirror your own Mac simply boggles the mind, it's like Apple wants to cut off the potential of the device at the knees simply to continue selling services.

Well this is pretty clear to me, it's definitely running only iOS apps natively, I don't see why they would open the app store for it as it's a huge goldmine for them. Apple still thinks people can use an iPad for all their work though my experience at work is very different (and I managed a large fleet of mobiles)

Indeed, and it's a shame. I am looking forward to whatever is available on the Windows and Android side in the future, at least there I can run whatever software I want.

Re: Karl Guttag on Apple Vision Pro (Part 1)

#80

Post by wkat4242 »

krger wrote: post #67
ohgodplsno wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, yes, we know some Apple users are unable to see past the "you can't be trusted" that Apple keeps violently stabbing in your brain, you'll live in a company town with company stores and company credits and you'll be happy about it. Now can the adults use their devices? The Vision Pro does not provide foveated rendering if you do not go through the Apple renderer. There's some extremely vague wording regarding Met…

>Yes, yes, we know some Apple users are unable to see past the "you can't be trusted" that Apple keeps violently stabbing in your brain, you'll live in a company town with company stores and company credits and you'll be happy about it. Apple isn't telling me that I can't be trusted. Apple is telling me that it's a stupid idea to trust third-party developers with unfettered access to my data, and they're not even a l…

> Of course. Feel free to bring to market your wonderful headset that allows VC-funded startups to create a never-ending torrent of privacy hellscape diarrhea apps you can enjoy until they implode.

You do realise you're describing 99% of the iOS app store here right?

In fact, while the Android app store is curated in an even worse manner, I find that Android does offer a lot more high-quality ad-free open source software on platforms like F-Droid. Because the iOS developer subscription makes it hard for FOSS developers to do their work for free so things become more monetised.

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