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Karl Guttag on Apple Vision Pro (Part 1)

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Re: Karl Guttag on Apple Vision Pro (Part 1)

#51

Post by Daneel_ »

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #11
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #3

I appreciate Karl as the technical Bulldog for AR, doing really good technical analysis for the field. Even as someone steeped in this space, the fact of the 3-element AVP was news to me. That is a pretty big difference from other designs and tells me they are reaching for anything they can to squeeze optimizations out. AR is really really hard.

What are the current use cases for AR?

One of the best I’ve seen is for manufacturing and inspection. Eg, it highlights the next set of holes to place bolts into, then gives tightening order, etc. It eliminates the need to think about each step.

Re: Karl Guttag on Apple Vision Pro (Part 1)

#52

Post by Kon-Peki »

Daneel_ wrote: post #51
MuffinFlavored wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are the current use cases for AR?

One of the best I’ve seen is for manufacturing and inspection. Eg, it highlights the next set of holes to place bolts into, then gives tightening order, etc. It eliminates the need to think about each step.

If you're eliminating thinking, you might as well use a robot.

I don't know about the ideal use cases, but it certainly appears that the SDK and dev environment are going to be the best and most accessible. So if a great use case does appear, it will probably be on the AVP.

Re: Karl Guttag on Apple Vision Pro (Part 1)

#53

Post by satvikpendem »

drewbeck wrote: post #50
satvikpendem wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it "pretty specific?" Any developer is running code locally (unless you work for Google or some company where they have remote codespaces). Why should I not want a headset that instead serves as a replacement for a laptop?

You can want whatever you want. It’s not a failure of apple that they don’t serve your specific need, however. They just built a product for different people.

Sure, that's fine. At the same time I can still call it a shame that they would have to do such artificial limiting. I'll more likely pick up the Android or Windows version of such a device without restrictions on what kinds of software I can run on my own hardware.

Re: Karl Guttag on Apple Vision Pro (Part 1)

#54

Post by thebigman433 »

ohgodplsno wrote: post #8
satvikpendem wrote: post #7

Anyone else worried that Vision Pro will simply be a large iPad and not macOS like, ie closed app store and not geared towards productivity? The fact that to run VSCode you need to mirror your own Mac simply boggles the mind, it's like Apple wants to cut off the potential of the device at the knees simply to continue selling services.

Why worry ? It's already guaranteed to be the case. Apps will not have direct access to the cameras, meaning that the Vision Pro is destined to keep being a toy fully steered by Apple. You also cannot access any depth information, or anything that would make it useful as a general 3D computing device. You can't access eye tracking, so say good bye to foveated rendering. And since you can't have foveated rendering, we…

> Apps will not have direct access to the cameras

Is there any headset that does allow this currently? Doesnt seem like any kind of differentiating factor

Re: Karl Guttag on Apple Vision Pro (Part 1)

#55

Post by cma »

kguttag wrote: post #6
cma wrote: post #2

> Pancake (MQP) versus Asperical Refractive Optics (AVP) Guttag's section about the lenses not being pancake and being refractive only I think is wrong, Apple says: "combined with custom catadioptric lenses," which implies reflection is is used like with pancake. (source: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2023/06/introducing-apple-vis... ) > It should be noted that the AVP displays about 3.3 times the pixels, has more a…

Good catch on the "combined with custom catadioptric lenses." Which by definition means a combination of mirrors and refractive optics. But I still don't think they are pancake lenses, but something more akin to what Limbak, which was recently bought by Apple was famous for designing catadioptric optics. Before being bought by Apple, Limbak was best known for their catadioptric design used by Lynx.

Is there a ray diagram the Lynx optics somewhere? I never fully understood how they work (reflection is off the sides of them?). With Apple showing the lens element shapes, is there room for reflecting off from the side?

Re: Karl Guttag on Apple Vision Pro (Part 1)

#56

Post by krger »

satvikpendem wrote: post #44
krger wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That's great for those people but yes, for devs, it's not a real replacement for a MacBook, even though it literally has the same chip inside. Good thing Apple isn't marketing it as a replacement for a MacBook then.

Of course it isn't, they want you to buy a MacBook alongside, that's my entire point. They are artificially restricting one device in order to make you buy their other devices. It's the same story as the iPad, it also has the same chip as the Mac but they restrict apps like IDEs so people instead have to buy two devices. If it were a Surface-like product instead, with full macOS, I'd have bought an iPad in a heartbea…

>Of course it isn't, they want you to buy a MacBook alongside, that's my entire point.

Hardware company entices consumers to buy more hardware. Film at 11.

>If it were a Surface-like product instead, with full macOS, I'd have bought an iPad in a heartbeat.

Ah yes. The Surface, the device that showcases the appeal of running an OS designed for mouse/keyboard input with a thin veneer of touch support spackled on top. It's amazing Apple isn't sprinting to release a product along those lines.

Re: Karl Guttag on Apple Vision Pro (Part 1)

#57

Post by jwagenet »

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #11
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #3

I appreciate Karl as the technical Bulldog for AR, doing really good technical analysis for the field. Even as someone steeped in this space, the fact of the 3-element AVP was news to me. That is a pretty big difference from other designs and tells me they are reaching for anything they can to squeeze optimizations out. AR is really really hard.

What are the current use cases for AR?

I think one of the better potential use cases for AR is for manufacturing work instructions. Typically, these are in binders or displayed on screens, but highlighting assembly steps, part orientations/locations, etc virtually would be especially nice for training or infrequent operations which don’t happen at a seated workstation. I believe Glass and some other products were exploring this space, but it could be that it’s a lot of work to set up.

Re: Karl Guttag on Apple Vision Pro (Part 1)

#58

Post by ohgodplsno »

krger wrote: post #47
ohgodplsno wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why worry ? It's already guaranteed to be the case. Apps will not have direct access to the cameras, meaning that the Vision Pro is destined to keep being a toy fully steered by Apple. You also cannot access any depth information, or anything that would make it useful as a general 3D computing device. You can't access eye tracking, so say good bye to foveated rendering. And since you can't have foveated rendering, we…

>Apps will not have direct access to the cameras A restriction for which I am thankful. >Vision Pro is destined to keep being a toy fully steered by Apple. I trust Apple a lot more than I trust the "let's figure out how to fingerprint users based on how they scroll and other metrics and use it to sell ads" crowd. >You can't access eye tracking, A restriction for which I am thankful. >so say good bye to foveated rende…

Yes, yes, we know some Apple users are unable to see past the "you can't be trusted" that Apple keeps violently stabbing in your brain, you'll live in a company town with company stores and company credits and you'll be happy about it. Now can the adults use their devices?

The Vision Pro does not provide foveated rendering if you do not go through the Apple renderer. There's some extremely vague wording regarding Metal supporting it, without any API documentation out.

Re: Karl Guttag on Apple Vision Pro (Part 1)

#59

Post by mellosouls »

easytiger wrote: post #39
mellosouls wrote: post #5

Excellent article, I look forward to the updates. As a Meta Quest 2 owner, and Android user, I'm a bit of an Apple-skeptic when it comes to their pricing on some products; but I have to acknowledge that while the Vision Pro seems mad-expensive on first reveal, it doesn't seem to be poor value going by the previews and specs, which seems to match the article's conclusions. That is where the Quest Pro seems to have fai…

How do you game on it?

The Vision Pro? I'm not a game player generally, I bought my Quest 2 for exercise apps and as a platform for investigating developing for VR and working inside the new medium.

I agree with your implication this is not an appropriate price format for gaming, but I would have thought the Vision Pro is aimed at more of that latter market; though presumably future less premium models will aim at the gaming and more natural consumer markets, or gaming will emerge as a secondary use for the more expensive models like this.

Re: Karl Guttag on Apple Vision Pro (Part 1)

#60

Post by jwagenet »

Kon-Peki wrote: post #52
Daneel_ wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the best I’ve seen is for manufacturing and inspection. Eg, it highlights the next set of holes to place bolts into, then gives tightening order, etc. It eliminates the need to think about each step.

If you're eliminating thinking, you might as well use a robot. I don't know about the ideal use cases, but it certainly appears that the SDK and dev environment are going to be the best and most accessible. So if a great use case does appear, it will probably be on the AVP.

You can use a robot for screws, but things like wiring can be difficult or impossible for a robot. Not to mention for low volume, setting up robotics isn’t worth it.
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