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APIs for content sites must be free

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Re: APIs for content sites must be free

#51

Post by capr »

duxup wrote: post #32
zoogeny wrote: post #13

I like vehement arguments even when I disagree with them. Based on this man's logic, if I were to run a web forum then I must provide an API or data dump to download the posts created by the users? How about a comment section on my blog? How about a community Discord server? Why not Facebook posts? Or Instagram stories? I often get the feeling that in these circumstances people derive first principles from specific d…

I’ve seen a lot of arguments that users are the folks who provide the value/ content of Reddit and so somehow Reddit must respond to their wishes. And I like that idea, a great deal. Although I have to note that users have given Reddit that content to use, for FREE, and continue to do so. They do this elsewhere too, including sites where they say don’t like the site administration, Twitter, etc… So I’m not really sur…

What I think he meant by "specific desired outcomes" is arbitrary rules that cater to special interest groups rather than universal moral principles. And yes, that _is_ democracy in action, where the only rule is that the majority wins, at the expense of the minority who just lost. Your ">1M users" rule is an example of such arbitrary rule that proves his point.

Re: APIs for content sites must be free

#52

Post by TheCoreh »

zoogeny wrote: post #13

I like vehement arguments even when I disagree with them. Based on this man's logic, if I were to run a web forum then I must provide an API or data dump to download the posts created by the users? How about a comment section on my blog? How about a community Discord server? Why not Facebook posts? Or Instagram stories? I often get the feeling that in these circumstances people derive first principles from specific d…

> Based on this man's logic, if I were to run a web forum then I must provide an API or data dump to download the posts created by the users? How about a comment section on my blog? How about a community Discord server? Why not Facebook posts? Or Instagram stories?

Yes? I don't think it's a very radical, unreasonable or difficult thing to provide: this is available as a first class feature on most blogging/forum software (RSS feeds) and wasn't even remotely controversial 10–12 years ago.

> They also seem to reinvent history such that there was some "implicit" agreement between Reddit and the users of Reddit.

There was an _explicit_ agreement: the site's terms of use have allowed free API access with reasonable quotas for 15 years, and are being changed now with very short notice. Of course the terms of service can change, but users are also free to leave, complain, or demand that they don't change. There are also strong cultural factors involved. For example: just like in the US it's customary for tap water to be free at restaurants, and people would be probably angry if you decided to charge for it, on the open web it's customary for some reasonable level of API access to be free.

> IMO, just because I wrote some shitposts on Reddit does not mean that I am entitled access to every single shitpost that has ever been written on Reddit.

There's no such asymmetry in scale: _everyone_ wrote the content, _everyone_ is entitled to access it. If you're referring to incredibly resource intensive, mass-access to download several terabytes for AI training I can see how that should cost a price. But they're blocking reasonable use-cases.

Re: APIs for content sites must be free

#53

Post by simonw »

I've found myself resisting posting comments on Reddit recently - things like answers to simple questions people have about SQLite - partly because I don't want to cross the picket line but also because I realize that I was relying on a very light social contract that was in place there: I would share my knowledge for free, in exchange for which I knew that I was contributing to a larger dataset that myself and others could get back out again.

If Reddit are cutting off free API access, that social contract no longer holds. Why should I work to benefit their service if they're hoarding the resulting data and not making it available to me or people like me in the future?

I thought I was vanishingly rare in caring about this kind of thing, but given the mass Reddit blackout over the changes to the API apparently I'm not!

Re: APIs for content sites must be free

#54

Post by zoogeny »

ineedtosleep wrote: post #37
zoogeny wrote: post #13

I like vehement arguments even when I disagree with them. Based on this man's logic, if I were to run a web forum then I must provide an API or data dump to download the posts created by the users? How about a comment section on my blog? How about a community Discord server? Why not Facebook posts? Or Instagram stories? I often get the feeling that in these circumstances people derive first principles from specific d…

I don't think your arguments accurately cover the OP's argument at all. The key distinction is literally the first sentence: "Social media businesses should not charge* for APIs." If you have a community [whatever] service that would not be a business. If you have a blog, that's could potentially be a very business-adjacent, but I'd argue it doesn't cover the "social media" qualification, so that also doesn't apply.…

> OP is arguing that API access should be free/at cost.

Implicitly he is also arguing that it must exist at all.

But let's consider further your own commercial clause. Apple has a discussion board for their support community [1] - and now we are mandating that Apple must both have an API for users to access it and must only charge cost. Who gets to determine the cost? Is it hardware costs? Does it include R&D? Is there a fixed margin set by a regulator?

The grey area on this is as wide as an ocean. But I do think it is a little funny that people are arguing about this like it is equivalent to a universal human right.

1. https://discussions.apple.com/

Re: APIs for content sites must be free

#55

Post by TheCoreh »

David_Axelrod wrote: post #26
11235813213455 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but you can access every single shitpost from the website, so why not from API? it's lighter

Most of the time you dont just expose your internal api routes to the world. You need to write curated public facing routes that dont include certain schema or records. Takes time to write and maintain that different set of endpoints

These are already written and fully functional, and Reddit has essentially been a non-moving target in terms of features since ~2016, when they added first-party image hosting.

Re: APIs for content sites must be free

#56

Post by zoogeny »

TheCoreh wrote: post #52
zoogeny wrote: post #13

I like vehement arguments even when I disagree with them. Based on this man's logic, if I were to run a web forum then I must provide an API or data dump to download the posts created by the users? How about a comment section on my blog? How about a community Discord server? Why not Facebook posts? Or Instagram stories? I often get the feeling that in these circumstances people derive first principles from specific d…

> Based on this man's logic, if I were to run a web forum then I must provide an API or data dump to download the posts created by the users? How about a comment section on my blog? How about a community Discord server? Why not Facebook posts? Or Instagram stories? Yes? I don't think it's a very radical, unreasonable or difficult thing to provide: this is available as a first class feature on most blogging/forum soft…

> users are also free to leave, complain, or demand that they don't change

Yes, I have no issue with all of those. I'm poking fun at taking that desire for action from a single company in a single instance and extending it to a universal moral principle.

My own opinion is that Reddit users were getting something valuable for free and it is being taken away from them. In addition to the totally reasonable protests that they are making, some are taking it a bit far and supporting their tantrum by creating axioms of morality that I believe are a bit excessive.

Re: APIs for content sites must be free

#57

Post by interactivecode »

willcipriano wrote: post #41
amelius wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I often get the feeling that in these circumstances people derive first principles from specific desired outcomes. But that's exactly how laws are made. E.g. why do we have consumer protection? Because it helps us! It's democracy in action. It's not like nobody would ever build another forum if there were laws like the ones proposed by GP. And if you're worried that every little forum should comply to complicated l…

> laws only apply to large players, e.g. >1M users. What if I don't want to share my user list with the government?

Then don’t run a content site?

Re: APIs for content sites must be free

#58

Post by deafpolygon »

dcow wrote: post #12

The most accurate/charitable interpretation of the content, despite the abysmal title, would be: If users provide content for free, then a platform must allow users to consume that content freely , as in "as they wish", not "for free". The author supposes that this is a fundamental social contract between users and platforms that needs to exist for platforms to work well. The author does not cite any evidence or exam…

The user does not provide content or participate on the platform for free. They get a free account in exchange for doing so, along with allowing their own data to be datamined.

Re: APIs for content sites must be free

#59

Post by xeromal »

simonw wrote: post #53

I've found myself resisting posting comments on Reddit recently - things like answers to simple questions people have about SQLite - partly because I don't want to cross the picket line but also because I realize that I was relying on a very light social contract that was in place there: I would share my knowledge for free, in exchange for which I knew that I was contributing to a larger dataset that myself and other…

I blocked reddit in my hosts file and have found my news through other means. Here and fark.com lol

Re: APIs for content sites must be free

#60

Post by interactivecode »

kohlerm wrote: post #33
11235813213455 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but you can access every single shitpost from the website, so why not from API? it's lighter

Because others use automatic ways to retrieve the data and derive value from it without paying anything

If reddit did that from the start we wouldn’t be in this situation in the first place?
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