Aleister Crowley and William Butler Yeats get into an occult battle (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: Aleister Crowley and William Butler Yeats get into an occult battle (2016)

#61

Post by cykros » Wed, Jun 14, 2023, 9:47 AM UTC

xupybd wrote: post #20

There seems to be interest on HN when it comes to articles about Crowley and similar figures. Can some one help me understand why it's popular with this audience?

Well, for one, Drs. Timothy Leary and John Lilly were both avid readers of his methods, and it helped shape their take on what in large part can be seen (and is sometimes explicitly referred to) as "programming the human mind." Ritual can be seen as a routine designed as an input that brings about a desired output, much like code being put into a machine.

For people who like the intersection of programming and the brain as a computer analogy, this scratches an itch. And when it comes to really initiating at least a semi-scientific approach to rituals of antiquity, Crowley was right in the middle of it. William James would be another good place to look if you ask me -- though honestly, Crowley mentions this in his reading lists, among quite a few good other sources.

I agree that he also has a lot of baggage -- the man enjoyed manipulating people, gaining power, and of course, gaining money to feed his cocaine and heroin habits. He was also a spy for MI-6. In some of his better moments he actively sought NOT to be some sort of messiah, but in many of his more mischievous times he reveled in it.

Tread carefully -- but yes, there's a lot to be curious about.

Re: Aleister Crowley and William Butler Yeats get into an occult battle (2016)

#62

Post by krapp » Wed, Jun 14, 2023, 10:07 AM UTC

b800h wrote: post #50

Simon_O_Rourke wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...substandard education in theology. Isn't most of theology just folks getting red faced arguing over things which are ultimately just made up, and are unknowable anyway in the first place? It's only a step away from a couple of guys shouting at each other about how the warp nacelles work in Star Trek.

There's a substantive difference between a religious argument on Twitter and proper theological argument which leans into philosophy. The problem is that people aren't typically exposed to the good stuff because teachers and the media don't know it either. Sadly even local religious leaders; that's a serious issue.

It's still all make-believe. And I say this as someone who has had an interest in Fortean and occult lore for years - it's just folklore people choose to pretend is real.

Re: Aleister Crowley and William Butler Yeats get into an occult battle (2016)

#63

Post by b800h » Wed, Jun 14, 2023, 10:16 AM UTC

mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote: post #55

b800h wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well they don't involve sex and drugs, or questionable attitudes towards women.

What's wrong with exploring one's spirituality and self through drugs and sex? Questionable attitudes I understand, but 2 out of 3 seem fine to me.

Because it inevitably becomes about the drugs and sex, and not the spirituality.

Re: Aleister Crowley and William Butler Yeats get into an occult battle (2016)

#64

Post by b800h » Wed, Jun 14, 2023, 10:22 AM UTC

3astofw3st__ wrote: post #56

b800h wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a substantive difference between a religious argument on Twitter and proper theological argument which leans into philosophy. The problem is that people aren't typically exposed to the good stuff because teachers and the media don't know it either. Sadly even local religious leaders; that's a serious issue.

Do you have any theological reading recommendations? Preferably not oriented (at least not wholly) around Christianity.

I'll go out on a limb here because the alternative is recommending a load of Christian stuff in combination with Philosophy and Eastern theology. David Bentley Hart is quite good, and his book "You Are Gods" may well be what you're looking for. I haven't read that specific title though. I ought to, it's sitting in my bookcase.

Re: Aleister Crowley and William Butler Yeats get into an occult battle (2016)

#65

Post by 3astofw3st__ » Wed, Jun 14, 2023, 10:28 AM UTC

b800h wrote: post #64

3astofw3st__ wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any theological reading recommendations? Preferably not oriented (at least not wholly) around Christianity.

I'll go out on a limb here because the alternative is recommending a load of Christian stuff in combination with Philosophy and Eastern theology. David Bentley Hart is quite good, and his book "You Are Gods" may well be what you're looking for. I haven't read that specific title though. I ought to, it's sitting in my bookcase.

I am a Sikh (this isn't the reason I am not so keen on christian literature, I've just already been exposed to a fair bit) so I would definitely be interested in some material related to Eastern faiths, I'll check out David Bentley Hart too.

Re: Aleister Crowley and William Butler Yeats get into an occult battle (2016)

#66

Post by mtlmtlmtlmtl » Wed, Jun 14, 2023, 10:30 AM UTC

b800h wrote: post #63

mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with exploring one's spirituality and self through drugs and sex? Questionable attitudes I understand, but 2 out of 3 seem fine to me.

Because it inevitably becomes about the drugs and sex, and not the spirituality.

I'd prefer if you actually made an argument to support that this happens, because this simply does not match my experience at all. And you just asserting otherwise doesn't change that.

And why won't you reveal what this wonderful method of "squaring the circle" is, since you seem so confident in its superiority? You're coming off quite smug about it, without providing any substance to back it up.

Re: Aleister Crowley and William Butler Yeats get into an occult battle (2016)

#67

Post by getwiththeprog » Wed, Jun 14, 2023, 10:34 AM UTC

b800h wrote: post #63

mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with exploring one's spirituality and self through drugs and sex? Questionable attitudes I understand, but 2 out of 3 seem fine to me.

Because it inevitably becomes about the drugs and sex, and not the spirituality.

The only book by Crowly I would recommend is "Diary of a Drug Fiend", in which he gets into drugs, has a great time in the first half of the book. In the second half he is addicted, crashes and burns. The rest of his work is utter nonsense and as you say, sophistry.

Re: Aleister Crowley and William Butler Yeats get into an occult battle (2016)

#68

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jun 14, 2023, 10:40 AM UTC

b800h wrote: post #63

mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with exploring one's spirituality and self through drugs and sex? Questionable attitudes I understand, but 2 out of 3 seem fine to me.

Because it inevitably becomes about the drugs and sex, and not the spirituality.

[deleted]

Re: Aleister Crowley and William Butler Yeats get into an occult battle (2016)

#69

Post by getwiththeprog » Wed, Jun 14, 2023, 10:41 AM UTC

3astofw3st__ wrote: post #65

b800h wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll go out on a limb here because the alternative is recommending a load of Christian stuff in combination with Philosophy and Eastern theology. David Bentley Hart is quite good, and his book "You Are Gods" may well be what you're looking for. I haven't read that specific title though. I ought to, it's sitting in my bookcase.

I am a Sikh (this isn't the reason I am not so keen on christian literature, I've just already been exposed to a fair bit) so I would definitely be interested in some material related to Eastern faiths, I'll check out David Bentley Hart too.

Plato is pretty good. He does this cool thing where the theology and morality of the city state is presented in a way which enables further development of the sciences and arts.

Really blows your mind when you start to put it all together.

Re: Aleister Crowley and William Butler Yeats get into an occult battle (2016)

#70

Post by BasedAnon » Wed, Jun 14, 2023, 10:48 AM UTC

3astofw3st__ wrote: post #56

b800h wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a substantive difference between a religious argument on Twitter and proper theological argument which leans into philosophy. The problem is that people aren't typically exposed to the good stuff because teachers and the media don't know it either. Sadly even local religious leaders; that's a serious issue.

Do you have any theological reading recommendations? Preferably not oriented (at least not wholly) around Christianity.

You might want to take a look at Rebuttal of the Logicians by Ibn Taymiyyah and The Incoherence of the Philosophers by Al-Ghazali, as far as classical Islamic theological works that have been translated, those will be your go to books but they're by no means introductory works.