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Dating, education, and sex ratios

robkhenderson.com

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Re: Dating, education, and sex ratios

#151
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not in the US, but it seems some people have become socially fearful. I think that there is an artificial sense of risk possibly driving by 24x7 news and social media that prey on people's fears and anxieties.

I would not say artificial. An individual with whom I work spoke a common word, with respect, and despite being a respectable term for another person, a term agreed by all parties as acceptable except the offended party, the accused was contacted by HR and advised to no longer use that term. There are other anecdotes of course but this is one example that even the best intentions the accuser is never told their posit…

This anecdote is not only unverifiable (as most are), but vague to the point of uselessness. I don't doubt that there are all sorts of overzealous HR departments out there, but I can also think of all sorts of ways of using "respectable terms for another person" in disrespectful ways, and have met plenty of people far more creative than I am at doing so. And invariably these people will hide behind "I totally meant it respectfully" because frankly that's the game. A subtle jibe with just enough wiggle room to hide behind.

Which is the case here? Who knows? The description of events as written works just as well for both.

Re: Dating, education, and sex ratios

#152
Counter-argument: Pushing Boundaries: Female Sexuality From World War II to the Sexual Revolution [0]

* Millions of eligible bachelors were shipped across the ocean, leaving a huge imbalance. And yet the sexual morals became more promiscuous.

> Much of the literature surrounding women during World War II focuses on women in industry, family life, and military services and largely ignores those women who sought sexual liberation and freedom through promiscuity, casual sexual encounters, and a wide range of sexual interactions. These women faced a nearly impossible set of conflicting messages. For an odd slip of time, a vast majority of the female population was effectively single (Israel, 2002), and although they might not have directly challenged sexual mores, these young women left a legacy of “sexual self-assertion that would generate both conservative and liberal responses in the postwar years, inspiring calls for female autonomy during the ‘sexual revolution’ to come”

* Around the same time "Calling" was replaced by "Dating", with a complete flip of gender expectations.

> During the first several decades of the twentieth century, however, the calling system began to lose traction, as “courtship became more and more a private act conducted in public spheres. Dating had been established in urban, working-class youth in the first two decades of the twentieth century. By 1920, however, middle-class youth adopted the practice (Spurlock, 2016). The primary difference between the date and the call was where the event took place. The call always took place in the girl’s home and almost always with some level of supervision from her parents. The central aspect of the date was that it took place in the public sphere, at such places as restaurants, theaters, or dance halls. Along with the shift in courting systems from calling to dating came a reverse in the roles for men and women. If a young woman wanted to date, she could no longer extend an invitation to her home or ask the young man to take her on a date. The control in the dating culture moved from the woman’s sphere, the private sphere, into the man’s sphere, the public sphere.

* Dating in public became dominated by economics. With the flipped gender roles this economic burden fell on Men, while also introducing economic competition into the personal relationship.

> “Dating also moved courtship into the economy” (Bailey, 1988, p. 21), which required money- men’s money. Money became a fundamental part of the dating system, which led to increased competition in the American courtship system. The centrality of money in the dating system signified a system of exchange, with the woman contributing her company and the man contributing his company as well as his money. In economic terms, the woman was selling her company to the man (Bailey, 1988). Since the man was responsible for expenses, he decided when the dates would occur and with whom he wanted to spend his time. The culture of dating supported the economic system of scarcity and abundance, and thus created a culture of competition amongst America’s youth for the greatest resources, or the most popular date.

* With the competition there became a "rating" system (sound familiar?)

> Under this complex, Waller theorized, college students used a system of rating and dating to place each other in a systematical hierarchy of eligibility based on traits they deemed desirable. Students, both men and women, who met certain criteria, were considered to be at the top of the social hierarchy: “they may be placed in a hypothetical Class A” (Waller, 1937, p. 730). For men to rate high they had to belong to one of the top fraternities on campus, be well-dressed, know how to dance, maintain a proper appearance, use good pick-up lines, have access to a car, and possess enough money to spend on dates. Women’s guidelines were similar in regards to appearance, but it was also important that she be considered a sought-after date (Bogle, 2008; Waller, 1937).

* Finally, "Going Steady" was a method women could use to escape the sexual double-standard and have sex (and other fun sex-related activities)

> These relationships brought new opportunities and meanings for sexual intimacy, and teenagers, especially females, had to navigate the complex and often ambiguous social rules set forth. Going steady offered teens a level of commitment that allowed for more sexual freedom and young men and women could more easily explore the erotic (D’Emilio & Freedman, 1988; Spurlock 2016).

> any heterosexual teen couples that were engaging in sexual acts, including heavy petting and intercourse, were going steady and experimenting. These relationships allowed for young boys and girls to engage in sexual acts, basically hidden in plain sight. The level of commitment of these steady relationships “provided the context, setting, and rationale for widespread sexual experimentation among heterosexual teens and young adults in the 1950s” (Littauer, 2015, p. 118), which led to increased sexual intimacy for young people that were in these relationships. Engaging in intercourse while in committed, steady relationships allowed young girls the opportunity to explore the sexual minefield of contradictory beliefs. This “created a cultural middle ground between explicit sexual mores and tolerated sexual practices that would influence Americans’ beliefs about sexual acceptability for decades” (Littauer, 2015, p. 113). Teenage girls and young women had the opportunity to experiment sexually due to the belief that their actions were justified because of the loving nature of their relationships.

* And yet the double-standard empowered boys and men, while only giving partial power to women.

> Although going steady afforded opportunities for increased sexual intimacy, young women and teenage girls continued to live with the cultural expectation that sex only occurred within the confines of marriage. There was little acknowledgement from older adults, the media, or society that women had interest in and the desire for sex. Girls were expected to act as if they wanted sex, but not act upon their urges (Littauer, 2015). In contrast, to be popular, girls were expected to participate in a certain level of sexual experimentation, at the very least petting, but they could not go too far or risk a bad reputation. The double standard that developed during the early part of the twentieth century persisted through the 1950s. It was very clear to almost every young girl that a double standard existed, yet where the line was drawn between just enough and too much was very ambiguous. If a girl’s sex life became a topic of gossip, she would be ostracized from the groups who were concerned over reputation, and to a vast majority of American, reputation was everything (Bailey, 1988; Bailey, 1999; Spurlock, 2016)

> The sexual “double standard worked mainly to the benefit of boys,” yet “enforcement came from the girls” (Spurlock, 2016, p. 93). Boys were free to express themselves sexually, while girls were expected to adhere to the confusing set of ideological standards. Since girls were expected to set the limits, if a couple went too far, it was the female’s fault. Boys, however, pushed the limits and often crossed the line from subtle pressure to outright aggression (Bailey, 1999; D’Emilio & Freedman, 1988). Young men were even taught by their peers and professionals various techniques to coerce women who expressed sexual reticence. Sexual coercion and aggression were seldom categorized as assault or rape during this time period. It was seldom that women reported sexual assault.

[0]: https://opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=189...

Re: Dating, education, and sex ratios

#153

Conversations about high income as a factor in attracting women often seem to neglect to mention that it's not enough to have a high income if you don't use it to signal wealth or to provide luxury experiences to women. Telling women you want to put your high income to work in enabling you to retire early but live a modest life and use that freedom to pursue creative pursuits doesn't have the same effect as taking th…

> it's not enough to have a high income if you don't use it to signal wealth or to provide luxury experiences to women Put another way, women aren’t attracted by men who earn a lot, but by men who spend a lot

It's not hard to find "Why is my boyfriend/husband so cheap?" as a recurring question in advice columns.

There's definitely a sense among many women that men should be demonstrably spendy - even flamboyant. Presumably because it confers competitive status.

I used to have a friend who used to do factory work. She said that whenever any of the women had a new boyfriend one of the first questions was always "What kind of car does he drive?"

Likewise many dating profiles say "I want a man who will spoil me."

Of course it's not all women, but it's certainly a significant number.

Re: Dating, education, and sex ratios

#154
post #13

What I find interesting and I am curious if these conversations can happen anymore. I no longer discuss anything related to gender, relationships, or personal life dynamics with anyone outside of my bubble. I would enjoy the conversation, learning about another's ideas and understanding although despite assurances of maturity and openness conversation ends due to their inflammatory pronouncements. I do not believe id…

Huh. Over here in Europe, we have these discussions all the time. They do get opinionated, of course. But it's not yet taboo.

"Not yet" is the right way to say it. But there are more and more people who just totally love being in their self-reinforced victim narrative and throw a tantrum like a toddler whom you took his candy away if you disagree with them.

Re: Dating, education, and sex ratios

#155
post #58

This is a known issue but the down stream effect won’t be felt for a while. Let’s be clear we’re talking about general behavioral trend, not trying to police an individual, which is the crux of contention for these topics. Many women still hold on to the idea of finding a partner that is wealthier and more educated. This is due to the past (over)reliance of their partners for stability. But this is no longer true. Th…

I think it’ll sort itself out fairly quickly. Women who refuse to “date down” will find themselves getting older and lonelier. They’ll open themselves up to more potential partners because long term loneliness is much worse than status anxiety (and people tend to lose their status anxiety as they get older).

I am not optimistic that it’ll sort itself out. In my experience spinsters get more radical and less agreeable, in effect double down on their beliefs. It’s like watching a train wreck that takes 30 years.

I’ve seen both women and men become embittered over time and I don’t think any of them will recover.

Re: Dating, education, and sex ratios

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not say artificial. An individual with whom I work spoke a common word, with respect, and despite being a respectable term for another person, a term agreed by all parties as acceptable except the offended party, the accused was contacted by HR and advised to no longer use that term. There are other anecdotes of course but this is one example that even the best intentions the accuser is never told their posit…

This anecdote is not only unverifiable (as most are), but vague to the point of uselessness. I don't doubt that there are all sorts of overzealous HR departments out there, but I can also think of all sorts of ways of using "respectable terms for another person" in disrespectful ways, and have met plenty of people far more creative than I am at doing so. And invariably these people will hide behind "I totally meant i…

In either case, it feels a little overly dramatic to worry too much about a scenario where HR asks you to not use a word anymore. Is this what people mean when they worry about people being cancelled?

Re: Dating, education, and sex ratios

#157
post #24
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh. Over here in Europe, we have these discussions all the time. They do get opinionated, of course. But it's not yet taboo.

It's not in the US, but it seems some people have become socially fearful. I think that there is an artificial sense of risk possibly driving by 24x7 news and social media that prey on people's fears and anxieties.

It's not artificial. You can and will be isolated, excommunicated, wrong think, and separated based on your acceptance of new language definitions and sensibilities. There have been groups out there that have enforced this via "Code of Conduct" agreements in organizations.

Re: Dating, education, and sex ratios

#158

I mean the research is nice, but I don't think that just a degree is going to up your chances. As someone who is using these apps constantly, I don't have any hope of finding a long term partner on there. I am on pretty much every app, except Tinder (Bumble, Hinge, okcupid, pof and even muzmatch (im south asian)). I have a bachelors, and I make good money. I've been told that I am a decent looking guy and I have quit…

These apps are broken no matter what you search, unless you are a somewhat attractive woman looking for quick hookups and don't care with whom.

Re: Dating, education, and sex ratios

#159

I read a book awhile ago called Shall the Religious Inherit the Earth? , which basically argues that cultures which strongly promote traditional values, having children, etc. will evolutionarily outcompete groups that don’t. It made me think that there must be a kind of cycle in human societies, where certain social values (like the ones mentioned in the article) are able to become popular for a short period of time…

> Given how difficult it seems for any genuinely universal cultural movement to take off in the dating space ????? Dating culture is substantially different than a decade ago.

Indeed, it, has become substantially worse, even though that seemed almost impossible.

Re: Dating, education, and sex ratios

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teenagers who haven’t gone to college yet won’t be that different. When they move out and live among peers and take courses from professors with views very different from home, you’ll see how things change!

> When they move out and live among peers and take courses from professors with views very different from home, Why would professors have "views" all that different from home? Professors are regular people too. (Two of us in our friend group / community, are literally employed college professors, others are elementary teachers, software developers, IT folks, one designer, one electrical engineer, two in marketing, on…

Professors are on average much more progressive and liberal than the average person and have a high amount of comfort and consequent belief privilege, so no I wouldn't say they're regular people. (Source: I'm a professor.)
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