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Tesla responds to "bricking" issue

teslamotors.com

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Re: Tesla responds to "bricking" issue

#111

Post by wtallis »

JS_startup wrote: post #94
jd wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read the original post. $40.000 is roughly 1/3rd of the original cost of purchase. So it's completely reasonable. If you can't afford that you have no business buying a first-generation $100.000 toy. As far as I know Tesla strongly recommends owners buy a charging station for their home and plug in their Roadsters every night.

Then you also know that the Model S that's being aimed at average consumers is rolling out soon with the same shortcoming, negating your expensive toy argument.

The Model S will be hitting the streets soon with the same fundamental physics limitations, but much better systems to mitigate that problem. (ie. lower idle discharge rate and more reserve capacity)

Re: Tesla responds to "bricking" issue

#112

Post by cynicalkane »

blhack wrote: post #36

Here's one of the problems that I have with this whole thing: My iPod goes dead all the time, so does my phone, so does my laptop, my camera, my remote, my everything. I think that every single battery-powered device I've ever owned has, at some point, gone "dead" (as in it won't power on). NONE of these things have ever been completely incapacitated because of this. I've never had to replace my laptop because I let…

As a few dozen people pointed out, these batteries can become bricked even with a physical disconnect. They're not bricking because of being drained, they're bricking because they're drained and then left for months. Do this to any other Li-Ion device and the same thing will happen.

More generally, you jumped to conclusions based on personal anecdotal evidence, ignored the entire preceding discussion, then pretended you were some kind of PR expert based on stuff you just made up.

(Edit: I guess the accusations are that some earlier battery models discharge in a week or a few, not months. I'm told the charge management circuitry of the 6000+ cell battery is extremely complicated, so improvement over time is to be expected. Nevertheless it's not a case of "duh just disconnect the battery"--these things self-discharge and also discharge very slowly over the disconnection circuitry!)

Re: Tesla responds to "bricking" issue

#113

Post by ghaff »

wtallis wrote: post #107
ghaff wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least with the 2008 manual I looked through, the warning (which doesn't seem to be as detailed as the more recent one) appears in section 5-2 of the manual. Well past all the dire warnings about using seat belts and how the car may contain chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer. I wouldn't conclude--based solely on this evidence--that everyone would be fully aware of the seriousness of letting…

You really can't fault Tesla for putting the battery warnings after the legally required warnings. They most likely have no choice. Now, if the battery warnings aren't immediately after the legally mandated warnings, that is Tesla's fault, but you have to keep in mind that it is totally reasonable to expect a first-time EV owner to read the section on charging.

They're not: http://www.scribd.com/doc/24701291/Tesla-Owners-Manual

I don't really disagree with you though.

Re: Tesla responds to "bricking" issue

#114

Post by gnaffle »

burgreblast wrote: post #25
redthrowaway wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really no different than early fuel-injected cars being damaged by running out of gas. The solution? Don't run out of fucking gas. That didn't stop fuel injection from becoming the dominant technology, and neither will this halt the rise of EVs.

Sounds like you knew all along that the Tesla battery could be bricked by running out of charge? That would make you one of a very small minority. The original story got play because it was a surprising, unknown, and frankly, sucks. If all of my fuel-injected laptops had never been damaged when they ran out of fuel, I would be pretty shocked and disappointed when it was a problem with the Kugelfischer. Much like the…

I'm actually pretty surprised at how few people knew this about lithium batteries. I guess that goes to show how much protection is actually built into the devices, and how rarely it actually happens. This problem isn't fixable, but it happens very rarely and is easily avoided.

And even so, Tesla (and others like Nissan) has made available a warning system just in case, and all the blogger managed to do was to point out the privacy concerns with this solution.

Re: Tesla responds to "bricking" issue

#115

Post by seanos »

cynicalkane wrote: post #112
blhack wrote: post #36

Here's one of the problems that I have with this whole thing: My iPod goes dead all the time, so does my phone, so does my laptop, my camera, my remote, my everything. I think that every single battery-powered device I've ever owned has, at some point, gone "dead" (as in it won't power on). NONE of these things have ever been completely incapacitated because of this. I've never had to replace my laptop because I let…

As a few dozen people pointed out, these batteries can become bricked even with a physical disconnect. They're not bricking because of being drained, they're bricking because they're drained and then left for months. Do this to any other Li-Ion device and the same thing will happen. More generally, you jumped to conclusions based on personal anecdotal evidence, ignored the entire preceding discussion, then pretended…

Except that for the Tesla it's days after reaching zero charge, not months.

From the manual "Important! Caution: If the battery’s charge level falls to 0%, it must be plugged in immediately. Failure to do so can permanently damage the battery and this damage is not covered by the New Vehicle Limited Warranty."

Re: Tesla responds to "bricking" issue

#116

Post by jamesgatz »

carbocation wrote: post #82
Arjuna wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mentioned this yesterday [1], but I am repeating it here, because I believe that it is a critical piece of the conversation. The consequences of failing to maintain the battery are clearly stated by Tesla Motors in the owner's manual. Is it the fault of Tesla Motors that an owner did not read, understand and follow the maintenance procedures outlined in the owner's manual? Is it not the buyer's responsibility to pe…

You can put whatever you'd like into the warning. The fact of the matter is that this is a car. When a car runs out of gas, it's not forever bricked. People will, due to a hundred years of experience, expect the same from a new car that has a different power source. They can fix this. They have the technology.

I know two people who have bricked their gas-powered cars by going too long between oil changes. This isn't a novel problem for complex machines. You need to maintain them if you'd like to continue using them.

Re: Tesla responds to "bricking" issue

#117

Post by vannevar »

fleitz wrote: post #87
Arjuna wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mentioned this yesterday [1], but I am repeating it here, because I believe that it is a critical piece of the conversation. The consequences of failing to maintain the battery are clearly stated by Tesla Motors in the owner's manual. Is it the fault of Tesla Motors that an owner did not read, understand and follow the maintenance procedures outlined in the owner's manual? Is it not the buyer's responsibility to pe…

"The consequences of failing to maintain the battery are clearly stated by Tesla Motors in the owner's manual." For sure they are well documented in the owners manual. However, the idea of getting a $40,000 repair bill for a car is going to turn many buyers off. Tesla should cover it for the sake of their business. If Tesla was paying for these repairs I guarantee you they'd figure out a way to prevent the failure.

Yes, if these kinds of failures are truly rare it won't cost Tesla much to cover them. Then they can reduce the loss rate further both by improving technology and emphasizing to their salespeople to ensure that the buyer knows to never let the battery discharge. The prospect of having their car out of commission for the replacement, and maybe a token service fee, should be enough disincentive to keep owners from being cavalier about charging.

Re: Tesla responds to "bricking" issue

#118

Post by marvin »

Kynlyn wrote: post #17
redthrowaway wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really no different than early fuel-injected cars being damaged by running out of gas. The solution? Don't run out of fucking gas. That didn't stop fuel injection from becoming the dominant technology, and neither will this halt the rise of EVs.

Yes, it is entirely different. Running an early fuel-injected vehicle out of gas didn't result in a repair bill that is approximately half the purchase cost of the car. Secondly, you could leave your fuel injected car idle for months on and end without having to worry about the car slowly slurping the fuel down and then leaving you an empty. So it is much easier to run a EV out of battery power and far more expensive…

I really don't see the problem. Tesla clearly states in the manual that completely depleting the battery and then leaving it without charging it will cause damage to the car. This would be completely analogous to running a brand-new early car without oil, destroying the engine. It's a serious neglect of your maintenance duties.

I mean, yes. You can "destroy" your car by not charging it. You can also destroy it by accidentally running it into a brick wall. No PR spin will change that either. That the repair would be very expensive is a moot point - this is a maintenance responsibility to you as the owner. As long as you are aware that this is an issue - just plug it in. It's not like you can forget by accident when you're aware that letting it completely deplete over a couple of months will cause an incredibly expensive repair job.

So where is the problem?

Re: Tesla responds to "bricking" issue

#119

Post by blhack »

cynicalkane wrote: post #112
blhack wrote: post #36

Here's one of the problems that I have with this whole thing: My iPod goes dead all the time, so does my phone, so does my laptop, my camera, my remote, my everything. I think that every single battery-powered device I've ever owned has, at some point, gone "dead" (as in it won't power on). NONE of these things have ever been completely incapacitated because of this. I've never had to replace my laptop because I let…

As a few dozen people pointed out, these batteries can become bricked even with a physical disconnect. They're not bricking because of being drained, they're bricking because they're drained and then left for months. Do this to any other Li-Ion device and the same thing will happen. More generally, you jumped to conclusions based on personal anecdotal evidence, ignored the entire preceding discussion, then pretended…

>More generally, you jumped to conclusions based on personal anecdotal evidence, ignored the entire preceding discussion

I didn't ignore anything, nor did I "jump" to any conclusions. The preceding discussions have been talking about the vehicle doing things like "phoning home" and issuing audible warnings.

This stuff doesn't come for free. You need the battery to power this.

Re: Tesla responds to "bricking" issue

#120

Post by maxerickson »

Torrents wrote: post #69

I registered at Tesla motors website so I could comment, but it says to login to comment, even when I'm logged in. When I click 'login' it says I'm already logged in. I would like to ask if it's true or not that any batteries have become inoperable due to being drained completely. Also If that does occur, what is the cost of replacement, and is it at all covered by warranty. It doesn't seem like that answer is forthc…

It seems pretty clear to me that they do not plan on offering warranties against batteries sitting unplugged for long periods of time.
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