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Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

thetimes.co.uk

811–820 of 1001 posts

Re: Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

#811

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quarantining people who may have been exposed is a whole universe away from the lockdowns being discussed here, where whole cities, states and countries proactively prevented the free movement of their people who they had no reason to suspect had been exposed. Don't conflate these two.

It seems you may be looking to only discredit an argument instead of arguing the merits. FTA: > However, the use of quarantine and other measures for controlling epidemic diseases has always been controversial because such strategies raise political, ethical, and socioeconomic issues and require a careful balance between public interest and individual rights. Here’s a list of about 30 examples since the 15th century…

> Here’s a list of about 30 examples since the 15th century where various governments have prevented the free movement of their people (because even then, they recognized that public health is more important than individual travel).

You mean those centuries before we truly recognized individual rights? Not a compelling argument. Again, quarantine of people who had possibly had exposure is very different than the proactive lockdown approach taken during COVID.

> In the face of a never-before-seen rapidly spreading and mutating virus, what the hell do you think medical professionals and governments ought to do? Stand by idly and let people die?

Inform the public and let them personally assess the level of risk they're willing to accept. You know, like they do with literally every other health question. Expanding protections for people facing dangerous working conditions because of the virus to opt out of work, and mandatory sick leave, is perfectly reasonable as well.

I don't know why people act like this obvious answer is completely out of the question. Will it result in more death? Quite possibly. Giving governments moral authority to limit people's rights in such a fashion is never the right answer though. Would you support the draft too?

Re: Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

#812

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks like there was a general increase in complaints as lockdowns eased. From the data, there were upticks in anti-jewish, anti-gay, anti-muslim and more. Asians still saw relatively more of an uptick than other motivations.

This is maybe more interesting. Anti-Asian 2019: 0.2% Anti-Asian 2020: 10% Anti-Asian 2021: 25% EDIT: Regarding an uptick in anti-jewish etc. Anti-Jewish 2019: 57% Anti-Jewish 2020: 43% Anti-Jewish 2021: 37%

I take it these are percentages of all complaints? Because the number of complaints for anti-Jewish hate crimes was 116 in 2020, but 198 in 2021, so a definite increase, but hate crime overall basically doubled as well, so the relative amount to the total is lower.

Re: Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

#813

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EDIT: Disclaimer, this was for one of the most principled politicians I've ever met. To this day, he will say he is an anarchist in public. (Although, he would say it in a pleasurable way) Sure, so to change 0.5% of the vote, we would find people with demographics that people vote for. For instance, if there is a women on the ballot, run another women because at least 0.5% of people vote for a women, so this splits t…

Those sound like basic things that politicians or even salespeople do. You sound like you went in naive, got your mind blown, and now believe anything is possible. I hate to break it to you but you haven't uncovered any shocking secrets and your 'destroy the economy so we can beat Trump even though he is defeating himself with his handling of the epidemic' theory doesn't water.

So you think the Democrats ignored scientists?

Re: Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

#814

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of people thinking you are an idiot does not mean you can't say it. I saw plenty of people saying things about vaccines, masks, ivermectin. But yes, when hundreds of thousands of people are dying globally, I think patience for those things wears thin in a personal capacity. But I would seriously question whether something is really 'taboo' if ~half of the country is watching media outlets where they ask these qu…

It is exactly the attitude you are still exhibiting that was the problem. “We’re in a crisis, no time to ask questions. Fall in line or you’re a far right conspiracy theorist/idiot.”

It is a legitimate opinion and not censorious that if you are going and telling people to take ivermectin for covid you are legitimately harming people.

Having that attitude is not "a problem", having opinions on dumb stuff people say is not censorious.

This new interpretation that freedom of speech means freedom from having people criticize you is novel.

Re: Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

#815

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's so obvious that an appeal to common sense is all that's necessary. How many markets do you think are in China? 100,000? 1,000,000? And how many of those are within driving distance of the one lab where: - They study novel coronaviruses - They sampled the same regions where the closest relatives to the virus were found - They applied to put a furin cleavage site in a coronavirus before the pandemic - They were ci…

'Common sense' says that the thing which has occurred periodically throughout human history (plagues and epidemics) completely naturally and is occurring around the same period after the last one ('Spanish' flu of 1918-20) would have the same causes as those before it, but with accelerated time frames due to ease of travel and population density.

There have been plenty of lab leaks in history too.

Re: Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

#816
post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At a high level, it's pretty simple. There was a very well coordinated and intentional conflation of the term "lab leak" with the conspiracy theories around China and the WHO intentionally developing and deploying bio-weapons as a means of global population control. These conspiracy theories lead to a marked rise in violent attacks on anyone of Asian descent in the US, and generally fed into the wet dream fantasies o…

> There was a very well coordinated and intentional conflation of the term "lab leak" with the conspiracy theories around China and the WHO intentionally developing and deploying bio-weapons as a means of global population control. I don’t recall a single instance of this. A year ago, people were saying on this site and elsewhere was that the issue was conflating “lab leak” with “intentionally engineered”. A year bef…

What goalposts? Just because you didn’t personally experience something doesn’t mean it prant exist/didn’t happen.

Re: Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

#817
post #801

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you misunderstood. Your claim is: "The overwhelming majority of conspiracies likes this, especially ones in fundamentally civilian organizations like science labs, don't survive a year if that." How do you know that the overwhelming majority of conspiracies don't survive a year if that? It's like sampling sick people and concluding that all people are sick. Without an estimate of the number of conspiracies th…

It's an intuition based on a lifetime of watching dumb bureaucrats try to hide stuff and failing. But your logic is symmetric: where are all the successfully hidden conspiracies then? Obviously your response will be "we don't know by definition because they're hidden", which sorta makes your point non-falsifiable, doesn't it? I'll put my money on bureaucrats being dumb over globalist nation state super autocracy ever…

His point would be non-falsifiable if he claimed to the opposite of your claim. He didn't. What he claims is the logic flaw of yours and argues deductively.

Re: Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

#818

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not all of the early lab-leak voices were racist. That sort of statement is always true, but that doesn't negate the real dangers of the Right using it for political advantage. Their general approach is to drive a wedge between different groups in the US (and abroad), pit them against each other, and have them take out their rage on each other as a means to distract them from the real issues going on. It was clear…

Anytime anyone starts talking about left or right in a scientific discussion I instantly discount the rest of their view, because we aren't talking about science anymore. Nothing is gained from making this discussion part of that asinine tribal tug of war.

You ignore the tribal tug of war at your own peril.

You become a useful idiot to those that would manipulate science for their own needs.

In a broader sense, when one side wants to make change, and one doesn't, the "centrist" position benefits the side that doesn't want to make progress.

The scientific reality is that at this point in the pandemic cycle, the best evidence now suggests credibility to the lab leak theory. In 2020 it did not.

Re: Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

#819

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not all of the early lab-leak voices were racist. That sort of statement is always true, but that doesn't negate the real dangers of the Right using it for political advantage. Their general approach is to drive a wedge between different groups in the US (and abroad), pit them against each other, and have them take out their rage on each other as a means to distract them from the real issues going on. It was clear…

So you are really a proponent of the post-truth society? It is better to believe a lie than to believe the same truth as right-wing people?

It's not about what you believe, it's WHY do you believe it.

It's better to start with logic, reason, and scientific evidence - not with guesses, fear, or conspiracy theories.

Sometimes the conspiracy theories are true!! The US government DID test mind control and psychadelic drugs on people. They DID forcibly sterilize thousands of african americans. But was 9/11 an inside job? Doesn't seem like it.

Don't forget, most of the same people screaming Lab Leak were later screaming Horse Worm Medicine.

Re: Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

#820

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those sound like basic things that politicians or even salespeople do. You sound like you went in naive, got your mind blown, and now believe anything is possible. I hate to break it to you but you haven't uncovered any shocking secrets and your 'destroy the economy so we can beat Trump even though he is defeating himself with his handling of the epidemic' theory doesn't water.

So you think the Democrats ignored scientists?

Democrats are not some monolithic entity. A 'democrat' is basically someone in the US who votes who has empathy for others and/or isn't in favor of Christian religious doctrine as a basis for legislating morality and/or thinks that making it super easy for anyone to buy a gun makes gun violence exponentially more likely.

I really doubt they all coordinated to destroy the livelihood of millions of American's to make the president look bad when he was doing it just fine by himself day after day.

If you are going to go the conspiracy route why not look to Republican politicians? They are much more unified and they universally hate Trump (do you even remember the primary debates? He literally insulted other opponent's families) and they only got in line because he demonstrated he could destroy their career by motivating his base to action. They wanted him gone just as much as anyone else -- they just couldn't say or do anything overt about it.

But no, that didn't happen either. A idiotic narcissist who refuses to listen to anyone and is obsessed with how he looks under stage lights more than welfare of the American people can lose an election just fine on his own.

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