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Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

thetimes.co.uk

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Re: Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

#701

Post by whimsicalism »

gizmo wrote: post #583
AdamN wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem was that almost nobody was saying the source 'might' have been a lab leak - they were saying that the source was 'definitely' a lab leak and then usually adding that Fauci sponsored gain of function research into viruses and then into conspiracy theory land. Most of us were open to the idea of a lab leak but the disinformation was so hard around the topic that sensible people had to push back and the lose…

No no no. The problem was that talking about a lab leak in any way was considered deplorable. So much so that the only people who still dared to speak about the lab leak in public were outcasts, lunatics, and people who didn't have a reputation that could be destroyed. In times of crisis a large fraction of the population will latch on to authoritarianism. This is universally true, and there are many historical and c…

You guys can actually just search old Hacker News discussions and also look at old media reporting to see that this narrative of "media suppression" is just blatantly false.

GP is absolutely correct - people reacted negatively (and remind that someone not liking what you say does not mean you are censored) because people (including now in this thread) are saying that there is 'definite proof of lab leak' when that is just bull?

Re: Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

#702

Post by saalweachter »

anthonypasq wrote: post #681
Manjuuu wrote: post #640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When there were zero evidences? Yeah, go figure.

there was zero evidence for either scenario, yet only 1 of them got you labeled a conspiracy theorist

I mean, one of the scenarios involves a conspiracy to cover up the accidental or intentional release of a virus.

The other one doesn't involve a conspiracy of raccoon dogs to sneak a sick member into the city to punish the humans for their consumption.

It can't really be symmetrical.

Re: Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

#703

Post by fumar »

shri_krishna wrote: post #540
cassepipe wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you can't blame dear grandpa's death on Russia maybe however you try ? I am pretty sure 9/11 - War on Terror saw a rise in aggression of muslim looking people even though it concerned less people than covid did. You're pretending there was no such thing as people on TV blaming it on people eating "bat soup" and stuff like that. When lab leak hypotheses were able to rise above the conspiracy theories thanks to…

> Because you can't blame dear grandpa's death on Russia maybe however you try ? And what does it have to do with State censorship of information? The State has no societal relationships (like grandpa/grandma/brother/sister/husband/wife/son/daughter etc) that can pressure it to shutdown flow of information. We are talking about State apparatus censoring information here. With Big Tech actively aiding it. > You're pre…

> No it is not normal. Even post 9/11 no conversation was censored in US media

No true. 9/11 was a nearly perfect military industrial play and no one could publicly question the US actions post the event. It felt like a lockstep war machine with vengeance at an all time high. You must’ve not lived through it.

Re: Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

#704

Post by Izkata »

boston_clone wrote: post #611
nonethewiser wrote: post #602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There was never a consensus for or against lockdowns. So when was the last lockdown before covid?

Please don't try and have other people do your research for easily answered questions. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3559034/

The article is conflating quarantines with lockdowns. They're not the same thing. Quarantines are more like the much-derided Great Barrington Declaration.

Re: Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

#705

Post by whimsicalism »

carimura wrote: post #638
Manjuuu wrote: post #629

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

and that right there is how you promulgate a social suppression campaign.

When did people start conflating people disagreeing vehemently with them and censorship/suppression?

I've been called a moron for saying that I don't think the evidence is fully there yet for lab leak, does that make me a victim of a counter-censorship?

It's nonsense.

Re: Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

#706

Post by neffy »

oneshtein wrote: post #685
stormfather wrote: post #596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the “lab leak” theory tends to be people pushing an unsubstantiated theory to either For me it's just common sense. It probably came from the coronavirus lab with a bad safety record it popped up next to. Duh. And I "push" it because I value the truth and want to live in a rational society where the truth isn't gamed for emotional or political reasons. And that's probably the same for most of us.

There is significant delay between lab leak in mid-September-mid-October 2019 and start of epidemic in December in Wuhan. Can such contagious virus as SARS-CoV-2 cross the distance between lab in Wuhan and wet market in Wuhan in few days? Of course. In few months? No way.

fwiw... there were posts floating around at the beginning of 2020 claiming that the epidemic was well established in Wuhan by December, and that cases were seen back to September, October.

It's unfortunate in so many way - admit a mistake was made, acknowledge the problem, and clean it up is so much more respectful of everybody's time and resources. Between Asian traditions of saving face, and US traditions of lawyers suing anything that moves, that approach never stood a chance of course.

Re: Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

#707

Post by cygx »

cubefox wrote: post #657
Manjuuu wrote: post #643

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that right there is how I remind you that if you want your hypothesis to be taken seriously you need proofs or at least a very compelling argument. There was neither.

Nonsense. There were plenty of arguments from the very beginning for the lab leak theory. The alternative "bat cave" hypothesis had plenty of implausiblies (e.g. huge distance) and was far from being "proven".

There is, however, quite a bit of precedent for bat coronaviruses eventually infecting humans, most likely through zoonotic spillover via an intermediate species (e.g. HCoV-NL63, HCoV-229E, SARS-CoV-1, MERS-CoV, SADS-CoV), and thanks to humans shipping animals all over the globe, huge distances aren't necessarily a deal breaker.

Re: Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

#708

Post by Jochim »

atlantic wrote: post #627
jstarfish wrote: post #574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sometime in the past 12 months this disappeared. We're trying to groom public appetite for war with China. Anything that paints them in the worst possible light is acceptable now. After artificial chip shortages, the weather balloon incident, and TikTok, now it's suggested China was responsible for COVID. Expect more to follow.

What I don't get is that people automatically equate a lab leak in China with a lab leak by China. It's uncontroversial that American funding was involved. The most likely intentional scenario would be a leak caused by the United States to harm the Chinese economy. If it hadn't spread beyond China's borders, the epidemic would have been a massive win for the US.

What's not to get? Trump, Fox news, and a vanguard of the Republican party framed Coronavirus as a Chinese attack on the world in an attempt to boost their support.

Why some people are willing to believe the nonsense spouted by both I don't understand, but the fact that people do explains why so many view it as an intentional act by China.

Re: Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

#709

Post by pfisherman »

naasking wrote: post #668
pfisherman wrote: post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the most alarming aspect of the lab leak hypothesis is that gain-of-function research is STILL being done, and that the same thing could happen AGAIN. This right here is an example of why we can’t have reasoned discussion around the topic. You can explain one of the many reasons why gain of function research is necessary: anticipating next year’s version of the flu, designing drugs and vaccines such that resistance…

> You can explain one of the many reasons why gain of function research is necessary: anticipating next year’s version of the flu, designing drugs and vaccines such that resistance mutations reduce evolutionary fitness. None of these require gain of function research. > You can explain some of the safeguards in place: BSL 3/4 facilities, regulatory / institutional oversight, security services, etc. All of these have…

> None of these require gain of function research.

Please elaborate on this. How should I go about anticipating which mutations in which genes / protein will result in resistance to a candidate therapy / molecule / mechanism that I am considering advancing into phase 1 trials?

Re: Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

#710

Post by Arkhaine_kupo »

boston_clone wrote: post #611
nonethewiser wrote: post #602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There was never a consensus for or against lockdowns. So when was the last lockdown before covid?

Please don't try and have other people do your research for easily answered questions. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3559034/

do you think if they could google simple questions they would still parrot silly talking points 3 years after?
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