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Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

thetimes.co.uk

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Re: Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

#661

Post by 0x706B »

TheBigSalad wrote: post #632
pcrh wrote: post #55

After a quick read of the article, it presents no new data, and is replete with innuendo pointing at the Wuhan lab, rather than any direct evidence. Most importantly, the general reader should know that all labs researching viruses do research on dangerous viruses. After all there is no incentive to research benign viruses. So the fact that the Wuhan lab worked on coronaviruses is not in itself an indication of any i…

Only three labs in the world had Coronaviruses and this lab specialized in it. Yes the first cases were traced to the market, but it's in the same town as the one lab in the world that specializes in very similar viruses (which were never naturally observed nearby). It is objectively quite a coincidence if the virus didn't leak from that lab.

Source? Coronaviruses (e.g. SARS and MERS) have been researched all over the place as it was years ago (before COVID outbreak) already stated as one of the major virus groups with potential for pandemics.

Prolly you'll have a hard time finding a metropolis which wasnt researching corona viruses.

Re: Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

#662

Post by jasonlotito »

HardlyCurious wrote: post #387
Fomite wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've got a PhD in infectious disease epidemiology who got his start in researching respiratory pathogens and whose work on coronaviruses has been cited 387 times. I'd both put my estimate at much lower than 95%, and I'd be substantially less confident in it, since my expertise kicks in about two weeks after an initial spillover event occurs.

It is fact that a group that funds research in Wuhan (Eco health alliance) submitted a grant request to DARPA to fund research to engineer a coronavirus which could infect human lungs by inserted a specific cleavage site. Covid has that mutation exactly where the grant proposal planned to insert it. And no viruses in teh wild have been found to have that feature. This grant proposal was submitted in 2018. For covid t…

> Think about it.

That's the hard-hitting evidence that was missing.

And that's why this topic is so taboo and annoying. People turn coincidence into proof.

Clearly, you have an agenda that encourages people to stop looking at facts and instead to make things up they don't have answers for.

Think about it. (This means I'm right, right? This means if you don't agree with me, you aren't thinking, right?)

Re: Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

#663

Post by jasonlotito »

HardlyCurious wrote: post #539
WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Think about it Did you consider that maybe the reason this proposal was written was because this mutation was the most likely way this kind of virus could mutate to infect humans? I don’t understand why people keep throwing around all kind of unsubstantiated facts like if they suddenly made things clearer. The facts are not that complicated. Could the pandemic be linked to an accidental leak from a gain-of-function…

Discussing this isn't pointless just because we don't have definitive proof. We need to determine what happened based on what we do know. 7+million people are dead. Gain of function is happening in labs all over the world. Humanity can do something here to reduce risk.

> We need to determine what happened based on what we do know.

Incorrect. We need to determine what happened based on all the evidence. We can't just make stuff up to fill in the blanks.

i.e. If what we know doesn't contain facts essential to the determination, we can't just "think about it" harder.

Re: Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

#664

Post by l5870uoo9y »

The central issue is that the extremely dangerous gain-of-function experiments were being undertaking and potentially still are. I would advocate for a worldwide ban of gain-of-function research and strict regulation of potential dangerous medical research in a similar manner as the Nuclear Non-Proliferation agreement. Even as imperfect as it would be.

Issues regarding funding, laboratory security, military involvement, country of origin, responsibility of scientists, institutions and leadership involved are all secondary.

Edit: Fixed typing error and wording.

Re: Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

#665

Post by naasking »

speff wrote: post #648
peppermint_gum wrote: post #605

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These conspiracy theories lead to a marked rise in violent attacks on anyone of Asian descent in the US, It should be noted that the statistics don't support the media narrative and there was no wave of white supremacist attacks on Asians. Here are the stats from New York ("Arrest Statistics by Bias Motivation"): https://www.nyc.gov/site/nypd/stats/reports-analysis/hate-cr...

From your own link "hate-crime-complaints-by-motivation-annual" 2020 vs 2021: +Anti-Asian 2019: 1 Anti-Asian 2020: 27 Anti-Asian 2021: 131 *+ Edit: Added 2019 as suggested below

Looks like there was a general increase in complaints as lockdowns eased. From the data, there were upticks in anti-jewish, anti-gay, anti-muslim and more. Asians still saw relatively more of an uptick than other motivations.

Re: Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

#666

Post by Xerox9213 »

realjhol wrote: post #517

It's going to take a long time before the mainstream is ready to think critically about the COVID narratives, but it's good to see first steps toward the recovery of rationality. But there's still a lot to cover: - Lockdowns did little to prevent the spread of COVID and lead to increased deaths by other causes, egregious violation of people's fundamental rights, massively destruction of the economy, and many people's…

[dead]

Re: Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

#667

Post by pfisherman »

bitemaja wrote: post #597
pfisherman wrote: post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the most alarming aspect of the lab leak hypothesis is that gain-of-function research is STILL being done, and that the same thing could happen AGAIN. This right here is an example of why we can’t have reasoned discussion around the topic. You can explain one of the many reasons why gain of function research is necessary: anticipating next year’s version of the flu, designing drugs and vaccines such that resistance…

I think real risk is testing these chimera viruses on mice with humanized cells. Letting viruses evolve in-vivo is the problem especially when they are so viral. There needs to be limitations on what R is allowed to be produced in-vivo, even more so because calculating the risk of virality of the outbreak is trivial if in-vitro studies are done.

Chimera virus. You mean like a spike protein expressing VSV? Do you think that (pseudo virus) requires a higher or lower BSL certification to work with than bonafide Coronavirus? Why?

And why are you worried about humanized mice and not human cell lines like HEK or CALU? Why not primary cells or organoids? Somewhere the “Outbreak” monkey is crying.

I admit that I am being a bit snarky and passive aggressive here; but for the past few years I have watched people butcher bioscience in online discussions. Imagine being a classically trained pianist and having to watch people misattribute all of Mozart’s work to Brahms. It is enough to drive anyone mad.

Re: Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

#668

Post by naasking »

pfisherman wrote: post #589
015UUZn8aEvW wrote: post #546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you overstate how much the lab leak and the bioweapon stories were being conflated. I recall that most people were able to distinguish between them, and that the most prominent figures raising red flags about a potential leak weren't talking about bioweapons. In any case, the most alarming aspect of the lab leak hypothesis is that gain-of-function research is STILL being done, and that the same thing could ha…

> the most alarming aspect of the lab leak hypothesis is that gain-of-function research is STILL being done, and that the same thing could happen AGAIN. This right here is an example of why we can’t have reasoned discussion around the topic. You can explain one of the many reasons why gain of function research is necessary: anticipating next year’s version of the flu, designing drugs and vaccines such that resistance…

> You can explain one of the many reasons why gain of function research is necessary: anticipating next year’s version of the flu, designing drugs and vaccines such that resistance mutations reduce evolutionary fitness.

None of these require gain of function research.

> You can explain some of the safeguards in place: BSL 3/4 facilities, regulatory / institutional oversight, security services, etc.

All of these have a long history of failures [1,2]. And those are just the acknowledged, some have actually been covered up [3].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_laboratory_biosecurity...

[2] https://www.amazon.ca/Pandoras-Gamble-Leaks-Pandemics-World/...

[3] https://health.wusf.usf.edu/health-news-florida/2023-04-25/d...

Re: Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

#669

Post by oilchange »

jcranmer wrote: post #429
oilchange wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To add to this, most countries have turned away from infectious biological weapons because they are near impossible to control. Most countries ( small to mid-tier ) lack the expertise, will or reason for it. But most major countries are working on biological weapons. If you think the US, Russia, China, UK, France, Germany, Japan, Israel, etc aren't running bio-weapons labs, then you are being too trusting at best o…

> But most major countries are working on biological weapons. If you think the US, Russia, China, UK, France, Germany, Japan, Israel, etc aren't running bio-weapons labs, then you are being too trusting at best or too naive at worst. Or maybe I'm just being too cynical. https://acoup.blog/2020/03/20/collections-why-dont-we-use-ch... covers this in some detail (it's geared towards chemical weapons, but biological weap…

> For major militaries, there's no point in using them, which is why the "big" military powers have all signed up to the anti-chemical weapons and anti-biological weapons treaties

If chemical and biological weapons aren't useful, why does one need a treaty to ban them? Makes one wonder? Is there are treaty to ban feathers as weapons? The fact that there is an anti-biological weapons treaty is proof enough that countries are working on biological weapons, just like the anti-nuclear weapons treaty is proof that countries are working on nukes.

The ability to think is a far greater tool than reading silly blogs. Take it from someone who has read too many silly blogs and watch too many silly youtube videos.

Also, pretty much every treaty ( international and intranational ) has been broken. Some even say treaties are meant or created to be broken.

Re: Inside the Wuhan lab weeks before Covid

#670

Post by anthonypasq »

boston_clone wrote: post #612
revelio wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is revisionism. The only place in Europe that didn't lock down was Sweden and they were viciously attacked in the media for it, additionally Anders Tegnall was also attacked by other epidemiologists. I followed it all very closely at the time. Tegnall and his mentor stood alone. With the exception of the Great Barrington crew and maybe Ioannidis, all the other so-called experts were loudly and vocally demanding…

A scientific consensus is significantly different than media opinion. Second, there is no "debate" regarding efficacy of masks and limiting exposure via quarantining. Masking reduces the likelihood of contracting SARS from others, and staying home reduces the spread to others and strain on hospitals. Unsurprisingly, the people attempting to debate this typically had no medical background whatsoever. Millions died in…

Oppositions to lockdowns were never about whether they would reduce deaths or not in the short term. Anyone with a brain could understand that if people weren't in a position to breath on each other, the virus wouldnt spread as quickly.

Oppositions to lockdowns were always about tradeoffs and whether they were worth it. Its just such a boring critique.

My main question still remains, what would your plan have been if we still didnt have a vaccine? From my perspective lockdown supporters got completely bailed out by one of the greatest medical/scientific achievements in human history (developing and deploying an extremely effective vaccine within 1 year).

The only thing lockdowns do is push cases into the future.

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