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Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

nytimes.com

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Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#71

Post by seydor »

martopix wrote: post #5

For those who did not grow up like me in Berlusconi's Italy, he was an interesting character and in many ways a precursor of today's politics. When Trump came to rise, I felt many aspects were similar: both very rich entrepreneurs, arrogant personalities, a tendency to go against well established rules, personal attacks on opponents, an admiration for strongmen (Berlusconi had a clear crush on Putin), tax creativity,…

I think these are directly related to their age bracket and the demographics which they were representing. Italy just happened to be a lot more aged than america. We should be talking about the demographic page-turning that will happen in this decade

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#72

Post by hulitu »

gpderetta wrote: post #49
peoplefromibiza wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in which there were no good choices to vote for: either corrupt Berlusconi or Communists (who were also corrupt). That's a pretty bad description of the situation in Italy. First of all we (I am from Italy, I voted in 1994 when Berlusconi bootstrapped his political career) have a large number of parties. In 1994 there were at least 20 symbols grouped in 2 main coalitions. Secondly, the communist were already a thin…

Incidentally, many Socialist refugees that managed not to get jailed during the Mani Pulite purges, ended up in Berlusconi's party. Incidentally Incidentally, Berlusconi was really a man of equal opportunities: he didn't really care about your beliefs, political background, gender or sexual orientation, as long as you could help him get more power, money, or at least keep him out of jail.

> was really a man of equal opportunities: he didn't really care about your beliefs, political background, gender or sexual orientation, as long as you could help him get more power, money

This is the perfect definition of a politician. And sadly it applies to 99% of them in a "democracy".

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#73

Post by Ekaros »

seydor wrote: post #70

It's unbelievable how long the reign of this generation of politicians was and still is today. It will also never be repeated in the future, thankfully.

Actually when you look at previous one or one before that those were quite extreme in many places in Europe. We are talking about decades. I would not be surprised if history repeats itself.

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#74

Post by hulitu »

boudin wrote: post #24
bilekas wrote: post #2

This is really sad actually. Whatever you think about him, you can't deny he lived life to the maximum!

The only sad thing about his death is that he managed to escape proper justice his whole life.

A lot of politicians do this. They make the law.

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#76

Post by pjc50 »

throw310822 wrote: post #64
pjc50 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People would rather be in complicity with bad behavior than admit the left has a point. > once he dared to say "it would be better to consult a second doctor before undergoing a risky or debilitating surgical procedure" Do you suppose you could supply the context for this? I mean, I can guess, it's obvious, but I think it also matters for the discussion?

He had been prescribed some major surgery, but got a second opinion and found out it wasn't necessary and/ or it had been prescribed in error. He was sharing his experience and providing some sort of general advice.

And why was this a scandal? It's not very googleable (partly because the news of him dying is all over the search results)

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#77

Post by hunglee2 »

gpderetta wrote: post #68
fatfingerd wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In history classes in the US, Mussolini is often cast as a minor sidekick of Hitler, but Hitler was following in Mussolini's footsteps but had much greater military capabilities. If history is an indicator then it is hard to exaggerate how bad a new populist strategy originating from Italy may end up being once it infects other nations.

I'm still surprised that the Comedian-bootstrapped Internet-driven populist party idea hasn't taken a foothold in other countries.

Famously, Zelensky was a comedian and won an election on a populist ticket. I think also Italy had a left wing comedian type become a party political leader. It's happening, Joe Rogan an in independent ticket

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#78

Post by pjc50 »

gpderetta wrote: post #68
fatfingerd wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In history classes in the US, Mussolini is often cast as a minor sidekick of Hitler, but Hitler was following in Mussolini's footsteps but had much greater military capabilities. If history is an indicator then it is hard to exaggerate how bad a new populist strategy originating from Italy may end up being once it infects other nations.

I'm still surprised that the Comedian-bootstrapped Internet-driven populist party idea hasn't taken a foothold in other countries.

Arguably that's the Trump version (although he was a gameshow host rather than a comedian).

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#79

Post by gpderetta »

Ekaros wrote: post #60
richardfey wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You forgot buying judges and (financial) police officers

How can you ever trust judicial system when even the top people got their position from the rotten people... Why would any of them bite the hand that got them their position and possibly in future a higher position. Everyone is corrupted and rotten.

To be fair many of those he surrounded with, including his second in command Dell'Utri, did end up in jail with extremely serious convictions like Mafia conspiracy and corruption of Judges. But he personally managed to change enough laws, delay trials, and keep enough plausible deniability to avoid the charges to stick.

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#80

Post by gpderetta »

pjc50 wrote: post #78
gpderetta wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still surprised that the Comedian-bootstrapped Internet-driven populist party idea hasn't taken a foothold in other countries.

Arguably that's the Trump version (although he was a gameshow host rather than a comedian).

Trump followed the rich tycoon playbook of Berlusconi, I think. He also did work within the framework of existing politics.

Grillo wasn't particularly rich and bootstrapped a new party through his internet reach. Although it is possible that Casaleggio was the real mastermind behind it.

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