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Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

nytimes.com

61–70 of 109 posts

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#61
post #2

This is really sad actually. Whatever you think about him, you can't deny he lived life to the maximum!

Only if you define "the maximum" as a 14 year old narcissist boy's fantasies.

He didn't really get to know the joys of adventure or a loving relationship. By all accounts, his life was actually pretty empty, a hole he tried to fill with material objects and anonymous sex.

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#62
post #4

Trump before Trump - Silivio Berlusconi was maybe the first of the modern populists - a political outsider who used celebrity status and media influence to enter the halls of power, and then proceeded to denigrate the establishment at every opportunity. It's a serious matter that this type of personality finds political favour amongst the people, and that our current systems of governance allow for unserious characte…

In history classes in the US, Mussolini is often cast as a minor sidekick of Hitler, but Hitler was following in Mussolini's footsteps but had much greater military capabilities. If history is an indicator then it is hard to exaggerate how bad a new populist strategy originating from Italy may end up being once it infects other nations.

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#63
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's something to be said about modern political and legal systems that these rotten to the core people can gain and maintain power for so many years, in spite of the obvious wrongdoings on every level. What is the problem here? The law being complicit? Extremely effective charisma and propaganda? Politics is full of these characters, and it seems that the more awful they are, the higher up the ranks they go. It's…

> What is the problem here? The answer is quite simple: as rotten as the likes of Berlusconi and Trump may be, the folks on the opposite side (e.g. Hillary) are simply just as rotten and despicable. As a voter you are then left with a choice of rotten or rotten ... their despicability sort of cancels out, and your choice then hinges on their secondary characteristics such as : are they right or left leaning.

Right, but there's a long road for getting to be President. These people need to be elected for lower ranked positions, or in the case of celebrities, spend years in the public eye. There's seemingly no wrong a person can do that money and charisma can't be used to gain influence and power. And at some point it becomes a reinforcing loop that eventually leads them to rule over countries.

I'd like to understand why this is such a foolproof road for many politicians. It must be ingrained in us as a species. This comedy sketch comes to mind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3zNLfmDm-0 (warning: crude humor)

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#64
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When Trump came to rise, I felt many aspects were similar: both very rich entrepreneurs, arrogant personalities .... And you forgot the knee-jerk reactions from the left, which reduced itself to a role of a spectator with the index finger raised and perpetually shouting "no, you can't do that"- applied to just anything he said or did [1]. I have seen the same with Trump. Some part of the population (including me) c…

People would rather be in complicity with bad behavior than admit the left has a point. > once he dared to say "it would be better to consult a second doctor before undergoing a risky or debilitating surgical procedure" Do you suppose you could supply the context for this? I mean, I can guess, it's obvious, but I think it also matters for the discussion?

He had been prescribed some major surgery, but got a second opinion and found out it wasn't necessary and/ or it had been prescribed in error. He was sharing his experience and providing some sort of general advice.

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#65
post #51
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like the recent Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon getting arrested a couple of days ago (and released, for the time being).

It is an odd consequence of the free speech and contempt of court laws in both countries that we can see inside the US president's house and look at the pile of illegal documents, while, sitting here in Scotland, the charges against Sturgeon remain extremely vague and it's basically illegal to discuss whether there is any substance to them.

> it's basically illegal to discuss whether there is any substance to them.

Could you elaborate?

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#66
post #8

Berlusconi was said to have had ties to organized crime, going back to his time as a real estate lawyer. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/dec/04/silvio-berlusc...

Uh, he was never a lawyer ... At the start he was a real estate developer.

His TV empire did start as small local TV channel for Milano 2, a residential neighbourhood he built in the "70.

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#67
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't politicians with ties to the mafia quite common?

Like the recent Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon getting arrested a couple of days ago (and released, for the time being).

Of all the examples of 'possibly mafia connected' politicians, you chose Sturgeon?!

Literally lol.

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#68
post #4

Trump before Trump - Silivio Berlusconi was maybe the first of the modern populists - a political outsider who used celebrity status and media influence to enter the halls of power, and then proceeded to denigrate the establishment at every opportunity. It's a serious matter that this type of personality finds political favour amongst the people, and that our current systems of governance allow for unserious characte…

In history classes in the US, Mussolini is often cast as a minor sidekick of Hitler, but Hitler was following in Mussolini's footsteps but had much greater military capabilities. If history is an indicator then it is hard to exaggerate how bad a new populist strategy originating from Italy may end up being once it infects other nations.

I'm still surprised that the Comedian-bootstrapped Internet-driven populist party idea hasn't taken a foothold in other countries.

Re: Silvio Berlusconi, a Showman Who Upended Italian Politics and Culture Dies at 86

#69
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What many people outside of Italy don't understand is how crazy the left side of politics in Italy was (and still is). Italy had a looong period (that arguably hasn't ended yet) in which there were no good choices to vote for: either corrupt Berlusconi or Communists (who were also corrupt). Meloni has so far been a pleasant surprise. I didn't have any positive expectations when she became PM but she seems to be doing…

A pleasant surprise? A government that says "we do whatever USA tells us to do, against our own interest" is good? If you're from USA I guess…

> "we do whatever USA tells us to do, against our own interest"

This statement sounds like criticism, not an endorsement of such state of affairs. But I was unable to find a source for it, so context or a citation would be welcome.

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