Earlier quoted context omitted.
>"Innocent until proven guilty" doesn't apply to the fucking Unabomber. Bombing people is kind of his thing. He proved it, what, 16 times? That won't stop people determined enough to defend him here, and as you can see people will die on that hill. How many lives were saved due to his arrest? That we will never know, but I suspect the number is not zero.
I'm not defending him. I'm simply stating the fact that him having a bomb in his possession is insufficient evidence to convict him of the crime in question. I am exonerated by fact. The prosecutors did not have enough evidence to convict him of a crime related to the live bomb they found. What are you going to do to argue against that? Deny history? It already happened. He wasn't convicted.
Ted Kaczynski has died
791–800 of 823 posts
Re: Ted Kaczynski has died
#792Earlier quoted context omitted.
one of the funniest things for me is the fact that many left-wing people add Kaczynski quotes without realizing that left-wing people are basically the first people to be criticized and almost mocked in Ted's main piece, "Industrial society and its future"
Virtually everyone who quotes Kaczynski is aware of his statements on the political Left, it's just that nobody takes that particular aspect very personal or seriously given that ecological anarchism, Kaczynski's position, has always been overwhelmingly a left-wing position.
Re: Ted Kaczynski has died
#793Earlier quoted context omitted.
Which ideas? Everyone keeps saying this but I’d love specifics.
Read his manifesto, they’re detailed. I was shocked for a straight week when I read it, I couldn’t believe I have been lied to my entire life. Or better yet his book Technological Slavery: https://archive.org/details/tk-Technological-Slavery
Re: Ted Kaczynski has died
#794Earlier quoted context omitted.
Your accusations are dramatic. It's OK to not consider this particular person's writings on the topic as required reading, or even particularly valuable, without rejecting the topic as a whole. And more subjectively, you shouldn't try to bully people into giving credence to murderers.
I've done neither. I simply point out that no meaningful conclusions can be drawn about a body of work without first examining it. Not sure why y'all think that's controversial.
I think you're falling prey to the trap many engineers and scientists do, by assuming that they are ultimately capable of pure logical discussion and analysis, and that their biases are known and minimal - and that others can be seen in that light, too. In such a world, perhaps it would make sense to give Hitler a fair shake.
In our current world, I see us all as flawed little monkeys who can be pulled this way and that by provocative rhetoric and incomplete information. Dismissing someone's ideology completely because it was a central part of their campaign to kill millions is by far the logical and ethical choice. To do otherwise is intellectual hubris, IMO.
All this is, of course, in addition to the "there's a billion books out there, why does Hitler get to the top of the list? What about his life, ideas, or the summaries of his books makes you think that his ideas are any better than a million political blogs you have yet to read?"
Re: Ted Kaczynski has died
#795Re: Ted Kaczynski has died
#796Earlier quoted context omitted.
You can't read someone's book without being brainwashed by them? Sad state of affairs.
I disagree with this characterization. It’s not that reading Mein Kampf would brainwash you, it’s that reading it for it’s “nuggets of wisdom” is an insane, dangerous thing to do. I sorta thought that part would be uncontroversial but who knows
Re: Ted Kaczynski has died
#797Earlier quoted context omitted.
And how would you know what, exactly? Have you actually taken the time to read any of the man's writing? Because I've been picking my way through his manifesto off and on this evening and so far what I'm encountering is calm, lucid, internally consistent, and a fairly accurate critique. Something about this exchange is reminding me of all of the decades of inarticulate hyperventilating about "communism" by individual…
Fascinating how good writing and surface intelligence can make absolutely insane ideas seem sensible. Deductive reasoning is, unfortunately, not absolutely reliable for people who have pattern loving brains and good enough memory to make long chains of deductions; evaluating the entire chain as a gestalt and with an eye towards the great amount of data we lack, about the present and past and true material causes, is…
Few if any called Ellul a madman or characterized his ides as absolutely insane, but as far as I know he didn't kill anyone.
Re: Ted Kaczynski has died
#798Earlier quoted context omitted.
Read his manifesto, they’re detailed. I was shocked for a straight week when I read it, I couldn’t believe I have been lied to my entire life. Or better yet his book Technological Slavery: https://archive.org/details/tk-Technological-Slavery
Yeah... I appreciate you taking the time to respond but "read this 35,000 word manifesto by a schizophrenic idealogical serial killer whose conclusions you already know you find vapid and deplorable" is not a great pitch lol. Was just hoping to hear some highlights. I think I'll just have to wander along for the rest of my life without gaining any insight as to why Hacker News is so in love with that work, beyond som…
Normally I could write something like that over a week end but this article... it is an absolute doozy and the further in I go the worse it gets!
The issue is, you cannot really condense his writings down without doing a total dis-service to the points being made. Either you are going to misrepresent a point and it get wildly misinterpreted OR you come off a little to in praise of it.
It is very clear that TK had an academic background, even going so far as numbering the paragraphs - and in his book, The Anti-tech revolution : Why and how - he is very clear at the beginnings that these writings are not meant to be just read but studied. I don't disagree, they are written in a very tight manner. So while Industrial society and its future is 35,000 words, it is very specific in those words. It is about a 2 hour read, or you can just find a audio version on youtube.
If I had to summarize the essence of his works, he had a very decent analysis of the flaws of technology based societies. He had absolutely no idea on how to actually bring about change or even know where to start. The subsequent 27 years of writing from jail showed that he could analyses the problems and potential failings of revolutionary tactics but had no idea of how to actually analyze what technology as good or bad.
There is a reason he was called an insane Genius.
Personally speaking, yeah he was right on a lot of things... now what?
I ain't going to do what he did and try to bomb the world into submission, that is just idiotic. It is all just a some really good analysis but with no means of achievable execution. I more worry about others that are coming after him that will do a lot more damage. Anders Beivik who killed many at a youth summer came in 2011 also deeply reference TK's works in his manifest - an example of how this line of thinking can only lead down a dark and terrible path. But doesn't mean you shouldn't read these things.
One can read these things and take away some very good points without having to internalize the whole thing. Aristotle said something like that, you can read and think about ideas as though they are true and not necessarily have to believe them.
Re: Ted Kaczynski has died
#799Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Thankfully there are many alternatives. What exactly are they? (the last I checked is that it's virtually impossible to live somewhere (even remote) off the land, without paying a ton in taxes, if you did succeed in some manner without attracting attention in a remote place it would soon get the attention of authorities in due course).
IMO, the alternatives are all based on a reframing of mindset versus a change in external environment. My understanding is that most of Kacynski’s disillusionment was born out of: - a recognition of how artificial most people’s values and goals are - an inability to find authentic & fulfilling values and goals - an innate urge to be useful and important Put another way, Kacynski didn’t want to be like the brainwashed…
In other words, being forced (or reengineered as Kaczynski writes) to take it. Not exactly an alternative now is it? Imagine telling the victims of the Holocaust, on their way to the crematoria, that they should accept the absurdity of life and release their ego, learn to not take things so seriously. Kaczynski's essential view on the destruction of the human condition by technology is of similar order to the contemporary view of Holocaust atrocities.
I don't agree with Kaczynski's philosophy as I'm as far from a luddite as one can possibly be, but I have put the time in to digest his work and I find few-if-any flaws in his major positions. Superficial dismissals of the sort one frequently encounters in this thread expose their originators as hopelessly naive and reinforce Kaczynski's message.
Re: Ted Kaczynski has died
#800Earlier quoted context omitted.
The quotes you mentioned say nothing about the two issues I raised.
Not what I said, but - goodbye