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Ted Kaczynski has died

nytimes.com

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Re: Ted Kaczynski has died

#761

Post by bbor »

lumb63 wrote: post #758
bbor wrote: post #599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are we, humanity, any happier than we were when we were hunter-gatherer tribes? I don’t think so - we’ve just found new metrics to focus on and to be disappointed in ourselves in. This seems crazy to me, leaning heavily on the proof that you yourself obviously are not choosing that life when you easily could. It’s possible in the same way that anything is possible, but cmon - the world is objectively less violent,…

In future discussions, you might have better luck eliciting useful responses from people when you don’t pit them to argue against an AI, IMO. It reads to me like “I didn’t want to put in the effort to generate my own thoughts, but I expect you to: good luck!” That aside I’ll focus on the Maslow point since I think it’s the easiest to discuss and has the most obvious carryover to a lot of the other points. Maslow tell…

Sorry if I offended by bringing up the AI - I was trying to use it to offer many possible avenues of more specific disagreement, so I could understand their stance better. Less about convincing or arguing.

On the rest of it… I think i asked a bunch of questions last night and am now facing the harsh reality that the answer is “some people see the whole shape of the world and human experience completely differently than I do and always have”. So not too much to discuss lol

To illustrate that, consider “ I strongly doubt anyone would be disappointed that they are not “actualizing themselves” if they were fighting every day for food, shelter, etc.”. I find this absolutely insane (no offense). You bring up poor modern people in the end, and I think that’s a great example of my concerns: being poor sucks, not knowing where your next meal come from feels terrible, and watching loved ones die of preventable causes is fucking heartbreaking. The idea that poverty/primitivism would lead to better self-actualization is so, so far from how I see the world that I think debate is impossible

Thanks for the detailed response! Appreciate the dialogue, for sure.

EDIT: on re-read it appears your point is that if we’re struggling for the lower needs, we won’t miss the higher ones. That’s not my understanding of Maslow, but since his theory isn’t really about happiness at all but motivation, I can’t appeal to the author there. It just seems very counter-intuitive that higher needs would not be missed while struggling to achieve lower ones; for example, does someone without shelter not miss love?

Re: Ted Kaczynski has died

#762

Post by asveikau »

csydas wrote: post #721
asveikau wrote: post #630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kaczynski May have said some interesting things That take is strange to me. He reminds me a lot of people I've been close to who suffered mental illness. He didn't want to be considered mentally ill, and his apologists don't like it either, and further, many who focus on his victims and crimes don't like it. But for me, that's the major story about him. It was clear to me the first time i tried to read the manifest…

I think this is an unkind assessment to Kaczynski. What he did was wrong, there isn't denying that, but I think people forget he really was a very good mathematician and that he very likely was a subject in the MK-Ultra experiments without realizing it. This is not to excuse all his actions as we cannot know really the full extent of the experiment he participated in without a proper understanding of what was going t…

> I think this is an unkind assessment to Kaczynski.

Only if you have a stigmatizing view of mental illness.

> but I think people forget he really was a very good mathematician

Famously, so was John Nash, who was schizophrenic. To say nothing about the large number of very accomplished people in many fields. Mentally ill people can be very smart and talented.

> and that he very likely was a subject in the MK-Ultra experiments without realizing it.

The onset of schizophrenia tends to happen in late adolescence. This lines up with his time at Harvard. I think it's wrong to blame the psychological experiment thing for this. It's like people who blame drugs for making people schizophrenic, without understanding that they may have had the condition before.

I would recommend the Netflix doc.

Re: Ted Kaczynski has died

#763

Post by ryanisnan »

xorbax wrote: post #576
rlt wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“My good friend’s dad was brutally murdered” “My delivery was delayed” Maybe not the place for it.

It's not that big a transgression It also makes a map of human affect. We can all pretend such a thing matters, but most horrors never touch our life and would never be known without the news. The fact that a random guy gave his spare time to help others is notable. The key point is the Christmas tree deliverer being a first responder. It's a hell of a thing.

Be careful, the virtue cops are out in full force these days. Heaven forbid you share an anecdote on the internet and someone disagrees with you.

Re: Ted Kaczynski has died

#764

Post by 11235813213455 »

catchnear4321 wrote: post #737
11235813213455 wrote: post #732

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Violence is certainly not the best way “Not the best” is minimizing in a way that suggests that it is merely less acceptable. unless of course you are in fact saying that violence, though not necessarily the preferred solution, is acceptable. are you?

Not trying to minimize it, but it's difficult to measure violence, what's the level of violence of a rapist? of someone with a polluting lifestyle of 100TCO2eq/year (violence to the environment, so distributed to people)?

Re: Ted Kaczynski has died

#765

Post by [deleted] »

dudeinjapan wrote: post #704
asveikau wrote: post #630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kaczynski May have said some interesting things That take is strange to me. He reminds me a lot of people I've been close to who suffered mental illness. He didn't want to be considered mentally ill, and his apologists don't like it either, and further, many who focus on his victims and crimes don't like it. But for me, that's the major story about him. It was clear to me the first time i tried to read the manifest…

I'm sure someone else has posted this but... rather than a mentally ill screed I'd say it's a pretty lucid diagnosis of the last 30 years: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ted-kaczynski-ship-o...

[deleted]

Re: Ted Kaczynski has died

#767

Post by Aerbil313 »

kevincrane wrote: post #676
californiadreem wrote: post #32

Anyone who disagrees with Kaczynski's ideas because they came from a convicted terrorist should read the works of Jacques Ellul instead, of which Kaczynski's was largely a popular reduction. The Technological Society is the clearest influence on Kaczynski's manifesto, but Propaganda: The Formation of Men's Attitudes is possibly more pertinent in this day and age. Ellul was a professor, a pacifist, and a Christian ana…

“Do you like the unabomber’s ideas but get embarrassed when you talk about the unabomber in front of your friends? Try talking about Ellul instead, you might sound more worldly that way”

If you’re embarrassed to talk about anti-technological ideas in this current technological dystopia, you’re as oversocialized as Ted described you in his works.

Re: Ted Kaczynski has died

#768

Post by Aerbil313 »

bbor wrote: post #587
NovaDudely wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the saddest thing. He had some great ideas and knew how to communicate them. He just didn't think he would be taken seriously unless he used the bomb cheat code on life to get notoriety. I suspect that if he had gone the path of writer with publishing, not only would his works be more popular, there would have actually been a realistic means of implementing some of his ideas. He had some great ideas and simul…

Which ideas? Everyone keeps saying this but I’d love specifics.

Read his manifesto, they’re detailed. I was shocked for a straight week when I read it, I couldn’t believe I have been lied to my entire life. Or better yet his book Technological Slavery: https://archive.org/details/tk-Technological-Slavery

Re: Ted Kaczynski has died

#769

Post by Aerbil313 »

bbor wrote: post #586
FrustratedMonky wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree, Kaczynski did make some good points. Maybe if he had learned to channel that energy better.

What points resonate with you? With as much sincerity as I can express, I’ve gotta ask: why aren’t you living in the woods if you think the guy who said that industrial society was a mistake “had some good points”?

My life plan has in fact changed to living in the woods after I read his manifesto and his book Technological Slavery: https://archive.org/details/tk-Technological-Slavery.

I don’t think he had just some “good points”, I think he’s completely right on the matter that modern (post steam engine & guns) technology is harmful for human life.

Re: Ted Kaczynski has died

#770

Post by Aerbil313 »

chasing wrote: post #371

On one hand, he murdered a bunch of people and ruined a huge number of lives. On the other hand, wrote a mildly interesting manifesto that only attracted any sort of attention because it was published by The Washington Post in a desperate bid to figure out who he was so we could get him to stop murdering people. (Which worked, by the way.) So, y'know. Evens right out... Interested in his ideas? Read better manifestos…

Are you saying only those manifestos who gain organic public attention are worth reading/can hold significant truth? Are you a the-majority-cannot-be-wrong or if-everyone-agrees-it-must-be-right person?
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