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New York City will charge drivers going downtown

cnn.com

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Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#51

Post by zeroonetwothree »

elmerfud wrote: post #3
DirectorKrennic wrote: post #2

[flagged]

Yes I agree let's fundamentally eliminate the right of free travel from place to place through the public thoroughfares on the conveyance of your choice. Because it's that pesky fundamental concept that we have of freely moving about through cities through county borders through state borders without being stopped and harassed that's actually the fundamental problem of it all. So instead of just pissing around and ba…

This is a gigantic strawman. Having some limited car free areas like downtown cores has nothing to do with free travel. There are already plenty of areas you aren’t allowed to drive. And car-free areas can make a downtown area so much more pleasant, for example Mountain View closed down just a few blocks on one street in its downtown and that alone makes it 10x better to visit.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#52

Post by mc32 »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #44
raldi wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lower-income Americans already take the bus far more than wealthy ones, who are much more likely to be driving. A congestion charge will fall disproportionately on the wealthy, and allow the buses carrying lower-income folks to move throughout the city faster.

This isn’t exactly true. Rich people have the resources to live closer to where they work, they are more likely to WFH, they can ride a bike to work often, or maybe even walk. Poor people often live farther away from their jobs, they have worse commutes, and the likelihood of accomplishing that long commute by mass transit in many American isn’t that great. Anecdotally, we are well to do, chose our house location to…

I was poor, I took the bus to college and work (there were times I'd have to add 30 minutes where I knew I'd have to leg it). It was an hour and a half with transfers. It's doable --you get used to it, just like tech workers get used to driving in from the East Bay into the Peninsula. It's no biggie. On the way home, sometimes you get off at a different stop to pick up groceries and then you're the one walking home with two plastic bags -at first your arms ache. Again, you get used to it.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#53

Post by jazzyjackson »

wussboy wrote: post #6
elmerfud wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes I agree let's fundamentally eliminate the right of free travel from place to place through the public thoroughfares on the conveyance of your choice. Because it's that pesky fundamental concept that we have of freely moving about through cities through county borders through state borders without being stopped and harassed that's actually the fundamental problem of it all. So instead of just pissing around and ba…

Your free travel is free only because its true cost is heavily subsidized and carefully hidden. Pay what it costs and you can travel all you want. I’m done with my tax dollars paying for your bad habits. “Free” my ass.

Given "using the roads that their taxes pay for", OP seems to be under the impression that gas tax just about covers it. Difficult to find an unbiased source but iirc gas tax covers 30-50% of whats spent on roads

Of course, like other infrastructure, its not necessarily meant to pay for itself directly, so long as economic growth makes up for it, but I think there's many cases where adding another lane to thr highway costs more than it enables. Frankly a lot of the road construction seems like a grift to me - how many hours can we take to resurface this section of the interstate ? Easy place to pour money - the roads always need repair, and yet, with all the bridges and tunnels failing with inadequate upkeep, one wonders if the money ever touches the ground.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#54

Post by milsorgen »

jmclnx wrote: post #25
cj wrote: post #12

See also: London congestion charge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_congestion_charge Singapore Electronic Road Pricing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Road_Pricing Stockholm congestion tax: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_congestion_tax

When I saw London doing that, I expected cities in the US to start that. I am surprised it took so long. I expected this because of the push of toll roads to make people use EZPASS. Depending upon the City, I think this makes sense. But, in the US, I wonder if this will cause another mass migration of people out to the suburbs ? In the US, people are more addicted to their SUVs than heron addicts are to their drug.

You sir, know nothing of heroin and it's work.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#55

Post by zeroonetwothree »

kodah wrote: post #39
nkrisc wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you’re still free to travel there as often as you like, for however long you like, any reason you like, and you don’t have to tell anyone about it. I’m not allowed to drive my car on sidewalks or bike paths, but that doesn’t mean we live in some dystopian nightmare where the right to free travel is restricted and I have to show papers everywhere I go.

> The first step to rid ourselves of our, dare I say, enslavement to our car-centric way of life is to make car ownership as expensive and inconvenient as possible. I hope more cities follow. Start closing off entire areas to cars. I'm pretty sure GP is responding to this, which while I appreciate the transparency, is atrocious. Creating negative incentives just makes people angry, and generally surfaces a lot of ine…

I think cars have a lot of advantages like the one you mention (and others, eg much less crime risk). But we can pull back on the car obsession a little bit, we’ve gone kind of crazy the past 100 years and made some awful cities. I think cars should be an option, they just shouldn’t be the only reasonable one.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#56

Post by raldi »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #44
raldi wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lower-income Americans already take the bus far more than wealthy ones, who are much more likely to be driving. A congestion charge will fall disproportionately on the wealthy, and allow the buses carrying lower-income folks to move throughout the city faster.

This isn’t exactly true. Rich people have the resources to live closer to where they work, they are more likely to WFH, they can ride a bike to work often, or maybe even walk. Poor people often live farther away from their jobs, they have worse commutes, and the likelihood of accomplishing that long commute by mass transit in many American isn’t that great. Anecdotally, we are well to do, chose our house location to…

Do you have a citation for that claim? Here are a few refuting it:

https://bikeportland.org/2016/01/25/low-income-households-dr...

https://medium.com/100-hours/is-congestion-pricing-fair-to-t...

https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/3/7/toll-roads-hurt...

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#57

Post by zeroonetwothree »

jazzyjackson wrote: post #53
wussboy wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your free travel is free only because its true cost is heavily subsidized and carefully hidden. Pay what it costs and you can travel all you want. I’m done with my tax dollars paying for your bad habits. “Free” my ass.

Given "using the roads that their taxes pay for", OP seems to be under the impression that gas tax just about covers it. Difficult to find an unbiased source but iirc gas tax covers 30-50% of whats spent on roads Of course, like other infrastructure, its not necessarily meant to pay for itself directly, so long as economic growth makes up for it, but I think there's many cases where adding another lane to thr highway…

The real cost of roads is in the space you take up that other cars cannot (at least in any area with significant population density). And that’s not paid for at all.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#58

Post by thx-2718 »

raldi wrote: post #35
thx-2718 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" At the same time, cities should develop bike stations and tramways for people to move around quickly in car-free areas, paid for by gas taxes, which should be raised, and road tolls, which should also be raised." Huh? If no one is driving who is paying gas taxes? Road tolls everywhere?

If no one is driving, we can take the unbelievable amount of public spending currently going into subsidizing automobile traffic and redirect it to fund public transit.

I don't have a problem with doing that. Of course how you get public transportation into rural communities is a bigger challenge but we don't have to have society be based around the car.

My issue is that the previous post said they would pay for public transportation and walkable carless cities through increase gas taxes and road tolls.

Re: New York City will charge drivers going downtown

#59

Post by zeroonetwothree »

pierat wrote: post #47
wussboy wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your free travel is free only because its true cost is heavily subsidized and carefully hidden. Pay what it costs and you can travel all you want. I’m done with my tax dollars paying for your bad habits. “Free” my ass.

How are motor vehicles subsidized? ---------------------- Loosely enforced speed limits Arbitrary setting of speed limits Free, off-street parking mandated in building codes Low Housing density induced sprawl and car requirement Exempting pickup trucks and SUVs from emissions laws Lack of vehicle safety laws to protect pedestrians and cyclists Aftermarket products exploit a lack of regulations Mandatory Insurance law…

I would say the two factors of free parking and free road use far eclipse the rest.
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