Tesla: Not so easily bricked • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla: Not so easily bricked

#101

Post by abruzzi » Thu, Feb 23, 2012, 7:05 PM UTC

X-Istence wrote: post #96

abruzzi wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you run your ICE without oil, yes, you will kill it. And maybe these should be thought of in the same way, but people worry about this because draining a battery to zero seems like running out of gas, and most of us have run out of gas at some point or another. Granted it's not the same because in the short term the battery management system should reserve the bottom 5% for the health of the battery. But the secon…

I've been driving for 6 years now and I have never ran out of gas. Is this really so uncommon that you can safely say that at some point or another most of us have run out of gas? I keep an eye on my odometer and on the gas gauge and know when it is time to get gas. My car doesn't have a low fuel light warning so paying attention is definitely required.

Where I drive, I am frequently 100 miles from the nearest gas station. Plus in small remote areas, gas stations can be out of gas, out of business, or just closed for unknown reasons.

Re: Tesla: Not so easily bricked

#102

Post by ruby_on_rails » Thu, Feb 23, 2012, 7:08 PM UTC

feralchimp wrote: post #51

This whole bricking story is a little ridiculous. There are any number of easy ways to 'brick' an internal combustion engine, and yet we're not all torches 'n' pitchforks over them. Partially because ICEs have been around so long that the relatively short list of "things to avoid" is burned indelibly into the popular consciousness. Partially because over a hundred-odd years of continuous engineering, a typical ICE ca…

I think the fact that you are agreeing with an article either written directly by Tesla PR or paid for by Tesla PR, which has a minority opinion on the matter, which is backed up by statements which are in disagreement to both knowledgeable parties and the Tesla owner's manual, is frankly unflattering.

I bet I can find some blogger who can make a better argument about the holocaust never happening, then this lousy excuse for a journalist. Then again, that individual would still be a minority among the knowledgeable populace.

Hey, lets give it a go here. Electric is the new comer to the party. They have to prove themselves. ICE proved itself. ICE isn't on trial here.

Re: Tesla: Not so easily bricked

#103

Post by orenmazor » Thu, Feb 23, 2012, 7:10 PM UTC

this isn't much of a rebuttal. he's basically agreeing that a non-trickle charged battery can fail completely, which was exactly the problem pointed out in the original post.

the problem isn't that an EV is battery based which has this flaw. the problem is that its not really addressed enough for people who dont daily drive their EV.

Re: Tesla: Not so easily bricked

#104

Post by abruzzi » Thu, Feb 23, 2012, 7:13 PM UTC

outworlder wrote: post #80

abruzzi wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you run your ICE without oil, yes, you will kill it. And maybe these should be thought of in the same way, but people worry about this because draining a battery to zero seems like running out of gas, and most of us have run out of gas at some point or another. Granted it's not the same because in the short term the battery management system should reserve the bottom 5% for the health of the battery. But the secon…

Restart, yeah. But I'd imagine that a car left unused for decades would require quite a lot of servicing before returning to the roads. Namely, there are many rubber parts, seals and so on. It might run, but you really shouldn't.

Even so, bleed the brakes, look for leaks, check fluids, and at worst, you are out a couple of hundred. My current truck is a 1972, and had been sitting for 10 years when I bought it. It needed the above, plus new tires.

Re: Tesla: Not so easily bricked

#105

Post by noonespecial » Thu, Feb 23, 2012, 7:14 PM UTC

I wonder why their super computerized battery doesn't just sacrifice some of its 6,831 commodity, 18650 form-factor, Li-ion cells to preserve the others and why aren't these cells cheap to replace being the most common form factor of lithium cell in the world.

Re: Tesla: Not so easily bricked

#106

Post by abruzzi » Thu, Feb 23, 2012, 7:19 PM UTC

Terretta wrote: post #81

abruzzi wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you run your ICE without oil, yes, you will kill it. And maybe these should be thought of in the same way, but people worry about this because draining a battery to zero seems like running out of gas, and most of us have run out of gas at some point or another. Granted it's not the same because in the short term the battery management system should reserve the bottom 5% for the health of the battery. But the secon…

> people worry about this because draining a battery to zero seems like running out of gas, and most of us have run out of gas Interestingly, the same applied to some models of RX-7. If you ran out of gas, you'd potentially need a service to re-prime it. Didn't stop me from buying one. // Not sure if myth. Never ran out.

Fuel injected vehicles have a much higher pressure fuel pump than carbed vehicles. Some designs might have trouble with priming, but most these days are submerged pumps that are installed in the tank. This solves the priming problem, and cools the pump.

This is a perfect example of what is happening here--any new technology is going to have hiccups. Fuel injection had _lots_ of hiccups, that have mostly been resolved. EV is bound to have hiccups, and is bound to get resolved.

Re: Tesla: Not so easily bricked

#107

Post by TeHCrAzY » Thu, Feb 23, 2012, 7:30 PM UTC

hyperbovine wrote: post #99

Why is it that fully discharging a Li ion battery ruins it for all time? I have experienced this with my MacBook too. Closed it at 1% and forgot about it for two weeks. Battery was a paperweight when I returned.

You can go look it up on wikipeadia; but in summary, the battery relies on a chemical reaction to produce electricity. After a certain discharge point, the chemical reaction is irreversibly changed, and can no longer be recharged.

Re: Tesla: Not so easily bricked

#108

Post by gte910h » Thu, Feb 23, 2012, 7:42 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #97

gte910h wrote: post #94

The fundamentally silly part about all is that Tesla doesn't offer insurance for this rare thing. Seems trivial to setup an insurance scheme for this rare, but exceedingly costly event, either internally, or via an external insurer. It may not be cheap but this PR issue can be fixed in an afternoon talking to Farmers insurance or the like.

Or even just having big clear warnings in the manuals, and then pointing to those warnings when this comes up.

I don't find a line in a maintenance manual an effective tool for handling this 40k expense.

Re: Tesla: Not so easily bricked

#109

Post by Someone » Thu, Feb 23, 2012, 8:18 PM UTC

sephlietz wrote: post #72

Nelson69 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of the things that "brick" an ICE can be repaired at relatively low costs. And almost all of those things brick the car by using it, Teslas will brick when you don't use them, you lock it safely in the temperature controlled garage and go away for too long and it dies. It strikes me as a design problem of sorts, you've got a relatively expensive and sophisticated sports car with piles of electronics. I would thi…

From the article: "The battery management system of the Tesla Roadster keeps the battery from being discharged to a damagingly low state of charge under normal driving conditions. It's true that a full discharge to zero percent state of charge can potentially be damaging to a battery. However the battery management system of the Roadster won't allow the car to reach that low level of charge."

"However the battery management system of the Roadster won't allow the car to reach that low level of charge."

In that case, Homer Simpson would never want one in his house. Also, why are they in the car business? I what their battery management system. It, apparently, can make energy out of thin air, to counteract the losses in the batteries.

Re: Tesla: Not so easily bricked

#110

Post by baddox » Thu, Feb 23, 2012, 8:20 PM UTC

Nelson69 wrote: post #68

feralchimp wrote: post #51

This whole bricking story is a little ridiculous. There are any number of easy ways to 'brick' an internal combustion engine, and yet we're not all torches 'n' pitchforks over them. Partially because ICEs have been around so long that the relatively short list of "things to avoid" is burned indelibly into the popular consciousness. Partially because over a hundred-odd years of continuous engineering, a typical ICE ca…

Many of the things that "brick" an ICE can be repaired at relatively low costs. And almost all of those things brick the car by using it, Teslas will brick when you don't use them, you lock it safely in the temperature controlled garage and go away for too long and it dies. It strikes me as a design problem of sorts, you've got a relatively expensive and sophisticated sports car with piles of electronics. I would thi…

> How many drivers have run out of gas when they are experienced and know better?

Not many, right? I've certainly never even come close to running out of gas, and I can only think of one time in my life where anyone I knew ran out of gas (and that was only yards away from the gas station).