Google uses in-person office attendance as part of employee performance reviews • Hacker News Board

Re: Google uses in-person office attendance as part of employee performance reviews

#251

Post by globular-toast » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 1:12 PM UTC

angarg12 wrote: post #106

IlPeach wrote: post #97

While I enjoy this whole debate in HN about remote Vs in-person, the point here majority seems to be missing is that the sole attendance is used as a threat for performance review. Effectively a joke. If Google had a problem with people and teams hiding behind a monitor not doing much, I'm sure you can recall a pre-pandemic world where this was also the norm when in the office.

Now that my company has started enforcing RTO, I noticed patterns in some of my colleagues, such as arriving late and leaving early, leaving the laptop in their desk disappearing for a long while, not answering messages for hours with nowhere to be seen, and very vague status updates when asked. It turns out slackers will slack, be it at home or at the office.

I don't always slack off, but I do often need time to rest and gather my thoughts. Sometimes my brain is just not ready or already fatigued and needs time. At home I'll chill out watching some mindless Youtube video or go for a walk. At the office I used to pretend to work by clicking around in some emails or something that was equally unproductive. I prefer not having to pretend to work.

Re: Google uses in-person office attendance as part of employee performance reviews

#252

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 1:18 PM UTC

wahnfrieden wrote: post #91

andsoitis wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fully remote with 2-3 day quarterly in-person meet ups would provide tech companies with the in person collaboration they seek and be cheaper I am a fan of hybrid (people can choose whether or not they're in the office). However, you want to be able to collaborate effectively at any time and not have to wait for quarterly gatherings. I've got complex problems to solve together with my team mates!

Hybrid usually means office is required every week. It’s terrible

[deleted]

Re: Google uses in-person office attendance as part of employee performance reviews

#253

Post by rubicon33 » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 1:19 PM UTC

Worked from home ~5 of my ~10 years in development.

Obviously, the "pros" of WFH are massive. No commute. Comfortable office. Food in the fridge. Daytime exercise + showers. Etc. etc.

I found however that too much of a good thing, is bad. For me, the lack of in person communication started to atrophy my enjoyment of life. I wouldn't have been able to really tell you it for the first few years, but I was slowly moving toward being mildly depressed.

Returning to office restored my excitement for my work. I credit my colleagues and the process of working toward a big goal with other people. We really underestimate how important this is for mental health.

If you're in office and you now what I mean, show some love to a fellow co-worker. You gotta admit it's nice to see each other.

Re: Google uses in-person office attendance as part of employee performance reviews

#254

Post by jen20 » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 1:21 PM UTC

kcatskcolbdi wrote: post #191

throwaway22032 wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Normal people get showers and wear deodorant dude. How do you feel about sitting next to someone at a bar?

I'm struggling to identify how it's not glaringly self-evident that the person you're replying to would not enjoy sitting next to people at bars.

At least not people incapable of donning deodorant and a fresh shirt. One would hope the bartender would solve that problem too though.

Re: Google uses in-person office attendance as part of employee performance reviews

#255

Post by Tade0 » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 1:22 PM UTC

rco8786 wrote: post #210

extr wrote: post #20

After going back and forth between in-person and remote jobs, my conclusion: * Remote work is much better if you know what you're building and "just" need to execute. * In-person is much better if you don't know what you need to build, are trying to "figure it out as you go along", and are relying on the implicit fast feedback loop of standing next to each other. Obvious, right? But I think what I've realize is the d…

That description of Meta sounds like a high level of disfunction that has nothing to do with remote or in person.

The only other place where I encountered such a "system" was in one (small) company, where the CEO's dress code did not include pants and I wish I never went there in the first place.

Re: Google uses in-person office attendance as part of employee performance reviews

#256

Post by okdood64 » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 1:25 PM UTC

angarg12 wrote: post #106

IlPeach wrote: post #97

While I enjoy this whole debate in HN about remote Vs in-person, the point here majority seems to be missing is that the sole attendance is used as a threat for performance review. Effectively a joke. If Google had a problem with people and teams hiding behind a monitor not doing much, I'm sure you can recall a pre-pandemic world where this was also the norm when in the office.

Now that my company has started enforcing RTO, I noticed patterns in some of my colleagues, such as arriving late and leaving early, leaving the laptop in their desk disappearing for a long while, not answering messages for hours with nowhere to be seen, and very vague status updates when asked. It turns out slackers will slack, be it at home or at the office.

> such as arriving late and leaving early

You see someone doing this and think: "slacker"...?

I come into the office around 9am and leave at 3:30pm to beat traffic and get a quick gym session in without the crowds. And then I hope back online to do some work. Am I slacking?

Re: Google uses in-person office attendance as part of employee performance reviews

#257

Post by pfannkuchen » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 1:28 PM UTC

I wonder if all of the WFH excitement would have happened if open offices had never become widespread and we all had an actual office with a door. It’s kind of funny that they’ve made offices so bad that no one wants to go there, but no one (on the corporate side) talks about improving the working environment in the office at all in the context of WFO.

Re: Google uses in-person office attendance as part of employee performance reviews

#258

Post by jen20 » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 1:30 PM UTC

achow wrote: post #234

extr wrote: post #20

After going back and forth between in-person and remote jobs, my conclusion: * Remote work is much better if you know what you're building and "just" need to execute. * In-person is much better if you don't know what you need to build, are trying to "figure it out as you go along", and are relying on the implicit fast feedback loop of standing next to each other. Obvious, right? But I think what I've realize is the d…

Or in other words what business problem one is solving 0-1, 1-10 or 10-100. For first two remote is non-starter. Similarly, what career stage one is in? Young workers who are in 0-1, and to certain extent 1-10, remote really does not work.

The first part of this is patently untrue. The most successful startup I worked at (defined as having IPO’d, and having their products effectively everywhere) was fully remote. This was very much 0-1, 1-10 type work. The only requirement to ever physically be in a given place was when visiting a customer.

The FAANG I work for now similarly has lots of 0-1, 1-10 type work (at least for my team), and a fully remote team. It works fine too.

The part about more junior employees is _more_ valid, though we had no problem on boarding juniors in either of those two situations.

Ultimately whether remote work is successful depends on whether the people doing the work have sufficient self-discipline to get the job done, and whether the hypothetical office alternative is set up for success. Most offices are not remotely set up for success, but optimize instead for middle management (toxin or cancer? [1]) being able to view their fifedoms.

[1]: https://www.talkfrom.com/video?name=leadership-without-manag...

Re: Google uses in-person office attendance as part of employee performance reviews

#259

Post by llm_nerd » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 1:32 PM UTC

rubicon33 wrote: post #253

Worked from home ~5 of my ~10 years in development. Obviously, the "pros" of WFH are massive. No commute. Comfortable office. Food in the fridge. Daytime exercise + showers. Etc. etc. I found however that too much of a good thing, is bad. For me, the lack of in person communication started to atrophy my enjoyment of life. I wouldn't have been able to really tell you it for the first few years, but I was slowly moving…

The obvious counterpoint is that many people were and are miserable commuting into a workplace and then putting in the grind. It's actually humorous that most tech "social media" like HN, Reddit, Digg, and so on were much busier back when most of us were in offices, because we all would bide our days doing anything but work. You could see the bursts as the primary demographic timezones started their "work" days.

Not everyone, of course: I had a peer once who absolutely couldn't stand his family, and he would be at the office before everyone, staying until late at night. Volunteered on weekends too. Almost all of his contributions were the sort of thing that could have been easily automated, but he was happy just wiling hours away. Mileage varies and everyone's situation is unique.

Then of course there's the change element itself being a temporary boost. Turn the lights down and productivity increases. Turn them up and productivity increases. Return them to the normal and productivity increases. Having a varied life is essential. HN's history is littered by posts of people who changed some element of their life and This Changes Everything...at least during the initial period. Then it fades and they abandon it.

None of this is to diminish your personal experience that you obviously enjoy.

Re: Google uses in-person office attendance as part of employee performance reviews

#260

Post by SketchySeaBeast » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 1:33 PM UTC

jleyank wrote: post #3

It might be useful to "all be in the room" when brainstorming. Once the coding starts, this is just a set of distractions I don't need. I suspect many/most of the developers reading HN want peace and quiet far more than the chance of magical hallway conversations. And it's only an anecdote, but we debugged a problem today where people were in two provinces of Canada and the UK. Were perfectly able to share screens, r…

I find debugging to be easier when everyone has their own machine. You can screen share the primary person's screen but then have others try out little things and do exploration on the side. And I'm far better with my desktop setup than I would be on a laptop that might not even have a mouse.