Google uses in-person office attendance as part of employee performance reviews • Hacker News Board

Re: Google uses in-person office attendance as part of employee performance reviews

#91

Post by wahnfrieden » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 4:57 AM UTC

andsoitis wrote: post #44

hparadiz wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fully remote with 2-3 day quarterly in-person meet ups would provide tech companies with the in person collaboration they seek and be cheaper. Remote first companies do this all the time. Employees feel way better about it if the company provides hotel and accommodations when doing destination meet ups.

> Fully remote with 2-3 day quarterly in-person meet ups would provide tech companies with the in person collaboration they seek and be cheaper I am a fan of hybrid (people can choose whether or not they're in the office). However, you want to be able to collaborate effectively at any time and not have to wait for quarterly gatherings. I've got complex problems to solve together with my team mates!

Hybrid usually means office is required every week. It’s terrible

Re: Google uses in-person office attendance as part of employee performance reviews

#92

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 5:00 AM UTC

m463 wrote: post #75

extr wrote: post #20

After going back and forth between in-person and remote jobs, my conclusion: * Remote work is much better if you know what you're building and "just" need to execute. * In-person is much better if you don't know what you need to build, are trying to "figure it out as you go along", and are relying on the implicit fast feedback loop of standing next to each other. Obvious, right? But I think what I've realize is the d…

what is PMF? NGMI?

[deleted]

Re: Google uses in-person office attendance as part of employee performance reviews

#93

Post by sidlls » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 5:10 AM UTC

HWR_14 wrote: post #29

acjohnson55 wrote: post #17

I never cease to be amazed the extent to which companies are trying to squeeze the remote work genie back into the bottle. They're desperate to find ways to make that expensive office space seem justified. "See, look! The people are using it. They love it." (Just out of frame, guns are pointed at the workers.)

I never cease to be amazed at the extent to which knowledge workers want to make "replace us with Eastern Europeans/Latin Americans/Indians" as painless a drop in as possible.

This has been an ongoing issue in tech for at least two decades now. The workers in these places are generally not as skilled at software development. Their countrymen who are quite skilled have, to a large degree, moved to the US for work. My in-office coworkers from India, for example, have for the most part been at least as good as those from anywhere else including native US citizens. Those who have worked off-shore? Not so much. Quite poor, in fact. On more than one occasion I've seen units off-shored only to be brought back in a year. Companies try it because they want to save labor costs, and then regret it because the cost ends up increasing, as those who are left on-shore have to sacrifice their own productivity to make-up for the negative productivity from these workers.

Re: Google uses in-person office attendance as part of employee performance reviews

#94

Post by 72f988bf » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 5:16 AM UTC

extr wrote: post #20

After going back and forth between in-person and remote jobs, my conclusion: * Remote work is much better if you know what you're building and "just" need to execute. * In-person is much better if you don't know what you need to build, are trying to "figure it out as you go along", and are relying on the implicit fast feedback loop of standing next to each other. Obvious, right? But I think what I've realize is the d…

> In-person is much better if you don't know what you need to build, are trying to "figure it out as you go along", and are relying on the implicit fast feedback loop of standing next to each other.

true.

> For large companies like FAANG, I actually think they mostly fall in bucket 2

Also true most fall in the "figure it out" bucket... But here's where it gets funny: just meet in-person you say?

No, this is FAANG. You're in MTV, but the people you need to collaborate are in NYC, LAX, SEA, AUS, SFO...

So your in-person experience is you booking a room just for yourself so you can video conference all those people who also booked a room for themselves.

Because every other team is in same situation, finding a meeting room is a challenge in itself.

Take the call from your desk then?

No, this is FAANG, every building is open office layout, it'd be rude & disrespectful to your colleagues around who are busy coding.

Re: Google uses in-person office attendance as part of employee performance reviews

#95

Post by notac » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 5:16 AM UTC

Zaheer wrote: post #56

_tdd2 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's relatively well known that heads of people/whatever fancy name HR peeps come up with for themselves are generally sociopathic scumbags, so it's not surprising to me that this was the case.

Have you met any of these people? They're quite normal people like you and I. They've climbed the ranks in some cases by spending 20+ years at the same company. The discussions I attended were HR leaders in attendance only aside from myself. I was just popping into breakout rooms and observing. I left with the impression that the HR leaders are genuinely interested in improving the workplace experience. A central top…

I misread your original comment. I rescind my previous statement. Apologies for commenting on the internet while tired :-P

Re: Google uses in-person office attendance as part of employee performance reviews

#96

Post by heavyset_go » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 5:16 AM UTC

BenisMaximus wrote: post #28

kpw94 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah high CO2 concentration is probably making people less sharp, but mostly I've heard it's about people being less creative due to consensus-driven thinking Per https://twitter.com/emollick/status/1194301106584616960 : > People in groups self-censor and anchor on each others ideas, reducing creativity. Also can be anti-inclusive when "anchor on each other idea" is a euphemism for that guy repeating what a more shy…

Lots of people are too shy or anxious to break perceived consensus or even just to challenge a "stronger" personality in person. Put them in a chat room and they get all fired up.

And in dysfunctional workplaces, breaking consensus can put your job in jeopardy.

Re: Google uses in-person office attendance as part of employee performance reviews

#97

Post by IlPeach » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 5:16 AM UTC

While I enjoy this whole debate in HN about remote Vs in-person, the point here majority seems to be missing is that the sole attendance is used as a threat for performance review. Effectively a joke. If Google had a problem with people and teams hiding behind a monitor not doing much, I'm sure you can recall a pre-pandemic world where this was also the norm when in the office.

Re: Google uses in-person office attendance as part of employee performance reviews

#98

Post by q7xvh97o2pDhNrh » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 5:23 AM UTC

extr wrote: post #20

After going back and forth between in-person and remote jobs, my conclusion: * Remote work is much better if you know what you're building and "just" need to execute. * In-person is much better if you don't know what you need to build, are trying to "figure it out as you go along", and are relying on the implicit fast feedback loop of standing next to each other. Obvious, right? But I think what I've realize is the d…

> My instructions when I joined were something like "Yeah so just talk to a bunch of people and look for opportunities to contribute".

Do you mind sharing the job title for something like this? Sounds like a dream job.

Re: Google uses in-person office attendance as part of employee performance reviews

#99

Post by heavyset_go » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 5:25 AM UTC

mylons wrote: post #87

choeger wrote: post #85

This is just another form of layoffs, I think. The problem is that many other execs will follow. It's bizarre how this is purely about making life worse for the engineers without any rational reason.

it's almost like there should be a union or something

I was told developers had enough leverage without unions to prevent this from happening /s

Re: Google uses in-person office attendance as part of employee performance reviews

#100

Post by xyzzy123 » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 5:31 AM UTC

beoberha wrote: post #50

extr wrote: post #20

After going back and forth between in-person and remote jobs, my conclusion: * Remote work is much better if you know what you're building and "just" need to execute. * In-person is much better if you don't know what you need to build, are trying to "figure it out as you go along", and are relying on the implicit fast feedback loop of standing next to each other. Obvious, right? But I think what I've realize is the d…

I think you articulated a sentiment a lot of people have very well. For the non-decision makers, there is a strange dichotomy I see with coding. Remotely, I’m vastly more productive in getting coding work done. I’m sure most people would agree. But that productivity is almost erased by onboarding new hires. There are so many aspects of software engineering where it’s so much easier to be sitting next to someone, poin…

I am at the point where remote works better for me for a lot of what are ostensibly team / collaborative activities.

For example, incident handling has been lot more efficient for us with the team looking at different aspects and sharing on a call/huddle than what we often used to naturally do (involving a gaggle forming around 1 person's computer with different people offering suggestions of varying usefulness).

Demos and knowledge sharing I find also work better remote now than they used to in person now that people are used to the tooling.

I slightly prefer onboarding remote also, but that is because I'm the kind of person who gets distracted by wondering if I'm sitting too close or maybe I have not enough or too much deodorant etc.

The only thing that suffers remotely for me at this point is engagement. There's something about physically being with other people that makes their problems and desires seem more important to me, and I don't have any good hacks for giving more of a &"@$.