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Clearing 500k feral cats from New York’s streets

nytimes.com

161–170 of 244 posts

Re: Clearing 500k feral cats from New York’s streets

#161
post #72
post #51

This definitely isn't new. I had an apartment in Bushwick through the 2000s, and due to construction in the surrounding area, the rats on our block and occasionally in our building were huge and relentless. Then my neighbor moved in. She was a pet photographer by trade, but also cared for all the neighborhood cats as well as all the area bodega cats - making sure they all had their shots and were spayed / neutered. S…

> the rats on our block and occasionally in our building were huge and relentless and...? I was hoping to see the rats show up on your comment but you never mentioned them again

There was a commenter, I'm not sure if it was here, slashot or reddit, he would start with interesting premise but then halfway he got distracted and finished different story with something mundane never finishing the interesting story. He was famous for it.

Re: Clearing 500k feral cats from New York’s streets

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You stopped reading because they said something that is widely known by disease ecologists and the result of an actual scientific study? https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/cats-are-surprisin... "Researchers led by Fordham University’s Michael Parsons spent five months observing a rat colony housed at a Brooklyn waste management facility [...] Over the course of the 79-day testing period, local cats ambushed ju…

Yeah, I saw a TikTok and this guy was filming a cat that had lost it's tail and an eye. Apparently, it had gone toe-to-toe with the rats of Brooklyn if I remember correctly and lost. NYC rats can get pretty gnarly in size, nothing like the mice or squirrels we think of that cats usually kill.

Rats can get pretty large, and pretty vicious - cats can be outclassed by the bigger ones, you pretty much need a small dog like a Terrier (a "ratter") to guarantee that you can eliminate them au naturale.

Re: Clearing 500k feral cats from New York’s streets

#164
post #161
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the rats on our block and occasionally in our building were huge and relentless and...? I was hoping to see the rats show up on your comment but you never mentioned them again

There was a commenter, I'm not sure if it was here, slashot or reddit, he would start with interesting premise but then halfway he got distracted and finished different story with something mundane never finishing the interesting story. He was famous for it.

I was sure you were going to refer to u/shittymorph of reddit fame.

Re: Clearing 500k feral cats from New York’s streets

#165
post #142

I hate that cats kill birds. "We estimate that free-ranging domestic cats kill 1.3-4.0 billion birds and 6.3-22.3 billion mammals annually." https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380 Honestly, birds are pretty much the only surviving wildlife in many areas and I wonder what our children and grandchildren will encounter.

In any discussion of cats that study is mentioned and usually mentioned several times at that, and that is not surprising giving that it is published in Nature and comes from Smithsonian - it immediately generates a lot of trust in it.

2 things are notable about that study:

1. the researchers didn't specify the proportion of ill and old birds and mammals in those billions of killed. It is a glaring deficiency for such a scientific study. Billions of mammals and birds reach end of life each year. In natural settings natural predators take care about that. In developed areas basically only cats and rats are such predators who is available to perform that duty. When it comes to the ill birds and mammals - we have already been through such situation with deers and wolves. Thus, if the proportion of ill and old is high then it would mean completely opposite conclusion than the one the study reaches - it would mean that cats predation is beneficial for those birds and mammals.

Now, why the study has such a glaring deficiency? One can make an informed guess when one learns the 2nd notable thing:

2. a researcher in that department that produced the study was convicted of animal cruelty committed toward cats and that researcher is cited in that study.

Some other things to note wrt. cats and birds :

1. rats, a human civilization companion, raid birds nests and eat eggs, i.e. causing massive damage to population during the most fragile stage in the birds lifecycle

2. cats don't eat eggs

3. cats control rats population

Anekdotally - my grandmother's farm (farmhouse and 2 large barns) had always had a bustling population of barnswallows, and it also had always had a pack of feral cats living there. Sometimes we'd find a small pile of feathers - all what is left of an ill or stupid barnswallow as the cats would have no chance of getting a healthy flying bird. The farm had naturally had a lot of various food stuff - cattle feed, pig feed, chicken feed as well as human food - pretty much everywhere, ie. in storages as well as being actually fed in the barns and outside ranges to the cows, pigs, chicken. Despite all that food stuff present in large amount in many places, there had never been any traces of any mice or rats (note: no artificial pest control measures - like traps or poison - had ever been taken on the farm). So to me the cats are necessary companion of our civilization, and as far as i see they are beneficial - by protecting from rats and by taking out ill birds - to whatever birds population still surviving the stress of development already imposed on it by the humans.

Re: Clearing 500k feral cats from New York’s streets

#166

Be careful what you wish for. It reminds me of the Four Pests campaign in China around 1960, especially the extermination of sparrows, one of the causes of the Great Chinese Famine. 500k feral cats: that's a lot of mice, pigeons and young rats! Without predators like feral cats, NY's rat problem could become even more, well, interesting.

That's what I was also thinking.

The cats have been there for some time now (I assume there were lots of feral cats even before the pandemic) and the local ecosystem has somehow adapted to/with them. Getting rid of them is probably going to have unwanted consequences.

Who's to say cats can't live independently among humans (and rats and other animals) in cities? Someone is probably going to bring up the argument that the cats are not taken care of and have diseases, parasites, injuries, etc., but so do all animals living in the wild. The only difference is that you don't see the parasite infested malnourished stoats in the woods every day like you see your neighbourhood cat colony.

Re: Clearing 500k feral cats from New York’s streets

#167
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans kill far more birds than feral cats. Agriculture, pesticides, deforestation, destruction of fields and grasslands, the use of mice and rat poison, car traffic, wind turbines, ... it all adds up. It makes feral cats look like amateurs showing up on a gun fight with a pencil. In the EU, a 2021 study of 378 bird species estimated that bird numbers fell by as much as 19 percent from 1980 to 2017. And that's not be…

As long as we're being ridiculous and unserious I suppose you support TNR for humans to?

> Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.

I think we both know this person isn't supporting TNR for humans, don't be silly

Re: Clearing 500k feral cats from New York’s streets

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Domestic cats as a species had been introduced to America by humans, and still are explicitly kept and feed by humans. I'd call that breeding. This also sets an easy and natural metric of how many cats should be there: 0.

So your metric is how an animal got to a location? Birds can fly, not really fair to the feline species concerning which places it's allowed, eh? Zero cats should be allowed to exist in NA? No open borders for cats!?

> Zero cats should be allowed to exist in NA?

Zero non neutered cat should be allowed to exist in North America, correct.

Re: Clearing 500k feral cats from New York’s streets

#169

Be careful what you wish for. It reminds me of the Four Pests campaign in China around 1960, especially the extermination of sparrows, one of the causes of the Great Chinese Famine. 500k feral cats: that's a lot of mice, pigeons and young rats! Without predators like feral cats, NY's rat problem could become even more, well, interesting.

The article mentions that the cats may be responsible for control of mice population, but apparently attacks on the New York rats are relatively rare being far larger and more aggressive.

Re: Clearing 500k feral cats from New York’s streets

#170
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course TNR is better than doing nothing, but if you trap the cats anyway why not just kill them then?

100% agree that euthanasia is the effective way to deal with the problem. But, someone in this thread made the very strong point that people will trap and collect cats for free if you're going to neuter and release them. Granted TNR hasn't worked at all, but at least it's possible to stay elected while the program exists.

I imagine TNR also provides convenient subjects for veterinary interns learning surgery.
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