Live data from Hacker News

Clearing 500k feral cats from New York’s streets

nytimes.com

141–150 of 244 posts

Re: Clearing 500k feral cats from New York’s streets

#142
I hate that cats kill birds.

"We estimate that free-ranging domestic cats kill 1.3-4.0 billion birds and 6.3-22.3 billion mammals annually."

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380

Honestly, birds are pretty much the only surviving wildlife in many areas and I wonder what our children and grandchildren will encounter.

Re: Clearing 500k feral cats from New York’s streets

#143
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This really depends on how hungry the cat is. Feral cats commonly kill mammals larger than NYC rats, although they prefer smaller game. In general, you can expect a feline to be able to kill prey over twice it's body weight. In many habitats felines are the apex predator, and even feral cats are apex predators of some habitats. The biggest issue is that NYC rats, the non-native species that have evolved in urban envi…

My cat used to bring home Jack Rabbits. No small feat. That cat was an amazing cat in so many ways.

I had an alpha male cat when I was a kid and once saw it run down and kill a jackrabbit with one bite.

Re: Clearing 500k feral cats from New York’s streets

#144
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cats on the streets are a disaster for the bird population and still pale in comparison to the effect us and our cities have on their populations. cats are not the big problem, we are, people just don't like to admit it and would rather blame them. As is likely us destroying the insect populations many species depend on. > threat of dead cats makes rat poisoning efforts far more difficult to implement the reality o…

In contrary. It is you who doesn't like to admit it. Makes sense in a way, as cats are our cute pets and thus emotionally much closer to us than random wild birds. Ironically, those huge cat populations are caused by humans, so in the end humans indeed are to blame. From https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380 "Our findings suggest that free-ranging cats cause substantially greater wildlife mortality than previous…

or you are just eating up one random study the media went wild with because it made good headlines?

windows - https://www.sibleyguides.com/conservation/causes-of-bird-mor...

Habitat Loss, pesticides and other chemicals, then invasive species not just cats (including plants), then windows https://www.birdscanada.org/conserve-birds/major-threats-to-...

and i could go on. this will of course change with the country you are in, cats in a country like australia or small island are going to have a much different effect then NA/UK/EU and thus lots of organizations and scientists for these areas do not put cats as the number one cause because it really is not established fact.

I knew exactly what paper you were linking because it is always the one people trot out, as the only one making such wild claims with numbers that big from some imho wild assumptions.

There are others who also correctly pointed out that it is alarmist paper that needs to be taken with a large grain of salt: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9794845/

some of the choice quotes:

"both implied or were interpreted by others to indicate alarming predation of house cats on prey populations."

Churcher and Lawton (2) investigated predation by ca. 70 cats in one English village over a 1-year period, .... The authors estimated that 30% of the sparrow deaths in the village were due to cats, but stated that the village sparrow population was much higher than the average in other British villages. Although the authors were cautious in their interpretation, the media took off with alarming extrapolations of these very limited data across all of the UK."

"Loss et al. (3), .... stated that the magnitude of mortality in mainland areas was largely speculative. .... stated that un-owned cats (as opposed to owned pets) cause the majority of this mortality and concluded that free-ranging cats are likely to be the single greatest source of anthropogenic mortality for U.S. birds and mammals. However, most of the field studies in their literature review and in their data extrapolation have not taken the above-mentioned known facts about cat predatory behavior into account, .... Among the various studies they considered many lacked a correction for prey eaten or left when away from home, different methods of gut analysis, no control for habitat where the data were collected (suburban, city, farmland), or other causes of prey decimation (e.g., habitat destruction). "

"But the most serious criticism of all such studies is that none of them even mentions a rough estimate of the total population size of a prey species (supposedly being threatened by cat predation) or of the yearly reproduction and replacement of lost individuals. What good does it do to headline that “Cats kill up to 3.7 billion birds annually” if the estimated total population of birds in the USA is at a minimum 10 billion pairs breeding every year and that as many as 20 billion are in the country during the fall migratory season [US Fish and Wildlife Service (18), cited January 19, 2011]? Free-ranging cats might be taking about 10–15% of the population of birds annually, but that is not exceptional for a normal predator-prey relationship and is insufficient to eliminate a prey species. Further, estimates of the owned and non-owned free-ranging cat populations are just that–rough estimates."

"Fitzgerald (7) and with the addition of even more field studies (28) have countered that there is simply no evidence that free-ranging cats on the continents are the main cause of species disappearance (and biodiversity reduction) since there is usually a suite of predators utilizing the same prey species and other causes can be cited"

Re: Clearing 500k feral cats from New York’s streets

#145
post #54
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NYT seems to be running an anti-cat agenda. This article calls trap-neuter-release (TNR) a "controversial" practice, whereas it's well established and proven to be effective (something even this article says). A few years back, they ran a full-blown frontal assault[1] on Google's volunteer-ran TNR program, gCat, blaming the TNR program (and only the TNR program) for the decline of the local burrowing owl population.…

I'm sorry but you're dreaming of you think that feral cats aren't destroying local bird populations.

Can we get them to go after the pigeons and rats (aka flightless pigeons)? I’d rather have feral cats, like Rome, than large populations of those two pests.

Re: Clearing 500k feral cats from New York’s streets

#146

"Popular notions aside, cats rarely attack rats..." I stopped reading at that point. I have, on numerous occasions, witnessed cats kill rats (sometimes taking a while doing it, mind you, but always finishing the job). I am not usually outside, and I'm sure there's a lot more going on than I see. I live in a neighborhood that has had feral dogs, then when they went away (because more houses were built, I'm guessing, a…

You stopped reading because they said something that is widely known by disease ecologists and the result of an actual scientific study?

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/cats-are-surprisin...

"Researchers led by Fordham University’s Michael Parsons spent five months observing a rat colony housed at a Brooklyn waste management facility [...] Over the course of the 79-day testing period, local cats ambushed just three of the facility’s roughly 150 rat—killing only two.

[...]

A potential explanation for the felines’ unexpectedly low kill rate is the size and ferocity of city rats, Tanya Loos writes for Cosmos. New York’s infamous brown rats generally weigh around 330 grams, or roughly 10 times the weight of the average mouse. Given the choice between attacking a monstrous rat, a 15-gram bird and a 30-gram mouse, cats tend to opt for the less challenging prey.

[...]

But cats and rats are more likely to ignore or avoid each other than engage in outright conflict, University of Florida disease ecologist Gregory Glass, who was not involved in the study, tells Chen.

“Once that rat hits puberty, [it’s] way too big and nasty for the cat to deal with,” he says. “You can watch a lot of cats and rats accommodating one another, easing by one another, eating out of the same trash bag.”

Re: Clearing 500k feral cats from New York’s streets

#147

"Popular notions aside, cats rarely attack rats..." I stopped reading at that point. I have, on numerous occasions, witnessed cats kill rats (sometimes taking a while doing it, mind you, but always finishing the job). I am not usually outside, and I'm sure there's a lot more going on than I see. I live in a neighborhood that has had feral dogs, then when they went away (because more houses were built, I'm guessing, a…

You stopped reading because they said something that is widely known by disease ecologists and the result of an actual scientific study? https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/cats-are-surprisin... "Researchers led by Fordham University’s Michael Parsons spent five months observing a rat colony housed at a Brooklyn waste management facility [...] Over the course of the 79-day testing period, local cats ambushed ju…

Yeah, I saw a TikTok and this guy was filming a cat that had lost it's tail and an eye. Apparently, it had gone toe-to-toe with the rats of Brooklyn if I remember correctly and lost. NYC rats can get pretty gnarly in size, nothing like the mice or squirrels we think of that cats usually kill.

Re: Clearing 500k feral cats from New York’s streets

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because there's a real danger of losing some of these bird species, and absolutely zero danger of losing domestic cats as a species?

Species are lost all the time, it's just an arbitrary cut from an infinitely expanding evolutionary tree. So it's about as many different of them as possible? Does that strike you as an odd metric?

Nothing matters and we're just a speck of dust hurtling through the infinite so who cares what happens about anything right?

Re: Clearing 500k feral cats from New York’s streets

#149
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry but you're dreaming of you think that feral cats aren't destroying local bird populations.

Humans kill far more birds than feral cats. Agriculture, pesticides, deforestation, destruction of fields and grasslands, the use of mice and rat poison, car traffic, wind turbines, ... it all adds up. It makes feral cats look like amateurs showing up on a gun fight with a pencil. In the EU, a 2021 study of 378 bird species estimated that bird numbers fell by as much as 19 percent from 1980 to 2017. And that's not be…

As long as we're being ridiculous and unserious I suppose you support TNR for humans to?

Re: Clearing 500k feral cats from New York’s streets

#150
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poor people aren't the problem here, it's the relatively wealthy who feel that responsible pet ownership laws don't apply to them.

So we'll solve it with more laws. Brilliant! Just outlaw murder while you are at it too!

If murder was almost unmonitored, you could definitely improve the situation with some laws and some enforcement of those laws.

I don't understand your mockery here.

Post reply on HN