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Proposed SEC order to freeze, repatriate Binance.US assets

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Re: Proposed SEC order to freeze, repatriate Binance.US assets

#541

Post by RestlessMind »

lordfrito wrote: post #531
omniglottal wrote: post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're talking about billions of... dollars. Sounds to me like more scams exist because of fiat. Are you implying that scams don't exist with dollars, and it's the crypto alone which makes for fraud? Or is it that, if it's abused for corrupption and fraud, then it's hurting people so we should do away with it, like fiat?

Of course scams exist with dollars. Scams exist wherever people hold things of value that others want. People want the USD. I'd argue that crypto is mainly a dollar/fiat scam, as getting their hands on fiat seems to be the point of it. "I'll trade you magic beans for those USD" isn't about the beans, its about the USD. People are free to trade BTC on the blockchain no matter what the US government says. It's anonymou…

> It seem clear to me that almost all of the utility in the crypto space revolves around fraud and criminal behavior.

You are along the right path. Now take it one step further - what if "fraud and criminal behavior" is against despotic regimes like Taliban or Putin or dictators around the world? See my examples here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32406095

Re: Proposed SEC order to freeze, repatriate Binance.US assets

#543

Post by tsimionescu »

siwatanejo wrote: post #424
varjag wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you will perceive each and every other currency in the world fluctuating against BTC pretty much in sync. Which suggests it's the BTC volatility that is the invariant in the system.

Until it doesn't.

The point is that, so far, BTC is objectively extremely volatile. That it might not be in some future is not an argument to rely on it today.

Re: Proposed SEC order to freeze, repatriate Binance.US assets

#544

Post by vagab0nd »

lordfrito wrote: post #469

After everything that's happened in this space, the number of "true believers" I'm seeing here is astounding to me. After a decade of use the tech hasn't found many real world uses beyond gambling, drugs, confidence schemes, money laundering, tax evasion, and other financial criminality. This is 100% the community's fault, as they're the ones burning a lot of real world capital to build this stuff but have very littl…

My suggestion: Sometimes you just have to accept that there exists a vastly different perspective that you'll never understand.

If you really want to try, go read all they have to say. There's no shortage of that here.

If your goal is to convince them that they are "wrong", you simply can't.

Re: Proposed SEC order to freeze, repatriate Binance.US assets

#545

Post by asterix_pano »

lordfrito wrote: post #469

After everything that's happened in this space, the number of "true believers" I'm seeing here is astounding to me. After a decade of use the tech hasn't found many real world uses beyond gambling, drugs, confidence schemes, money laundering, tax evasion, and other financial criminality. This is 100% the community's fault, as they're the ones burning a lot of real world capital to build this stuff but have very littl…

Having internet money that is cross border, instant, efficient and censorship resistant is difficult to build, so it takes time, but it's incredibly valuable as it removes a lot of frictions.

Re: Proposed SEC order to freeze, repatriate Binance.US assets

#546

Post by Animats »

colatkinson wrote: post #413
TheDong wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The SEC certainly thinks gemini is running an illegal exchange, and said so quite clearly when charging them of that earlier this year: https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2023-7 The case has not been dropped, and I think pretty clearly states the SEC's opinion, which is quite consistent with what I said above. It is not legal to run a crypto exchange in the US (under current security laws I should add).

That case appears to be specific to Gemini Earn, a "staking" product where users would loan Gemini money and in exchange would get returns on that money through Gemini/Genesis's investment of those funds. Under the Howey test (a security is "a contract, transaction or scheme whereby a person invests his money in a common enterprise and is led to expect profits solely from the efforts of the promoter or a third party"…

> That case appears to be specific to Gemini Earn, a "staking" product where users would loan Gemini money and in exchange would get returns on that money through Gemini/Genesis's investment of those funds.

Yes. You put money with them, they invest it, you get some return, maybe. That's unquestionably a security.

Note that there's real staking, as with Etherium validators, where you lock up some Etherium in exchange for a cut of the gas fees. You're still exposed to Etherium going down, but the risk to the principal is low. Then there's fake staking, where you lend someone assets which they then control and invest. That's not "staking", it's an investment deal. A bad deal, because it has a capped upside and an unlimited downside. Someone else thinks that they can get a higher return than you can, but you take the risk if they fail. See Terra/Luna, BlockFi, etc.

Re: Proposed SEC order to freeze, repatriate Binance.US assets

#547

Post by UncleOxidant »

_8j50 wrote: post #356
UncleOxidant wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My problem with regulating it is that it will give it veneer of legitimacy. Let it all burn down.

But why? I feel like for some reason you think betting on the price of orange juice or oil is more legitimate and less scammy. It's a speculative derivative of a virtual commodity/system.

I think you outlined it right there. Orange juice and oil are actual things. People drink orange juice and burn oil in their cars. "It's a speculative derivative of a virtual commodity/system." Yep

Re: Proposed SEC order to freeze, repatriate Binance.US assets

#548

Post by mrguyorama »

coldpie wrote: post #501
lordfrito wrote: post #469

After everything that's happened in this space, the number of "true believers" I'm seeing here is astounding to me. After a decade of use the tech hasn't found many real world uses beyond gambling, drugs, confidence schemes, money laundering, tax evasion, and other financial criminality. This is 100% the community's fault, as they're the ones burning a lot of real world capital to build this stuff but have very littl…

> After everything that's happened in this space, the number of "true believers" I'm seeing here is astounding to me. I think part of that appearance is the rest of us have just kinda moved on from commenting on this space. We've been saying "this crap is dumb" for ten years, it's getting old at this point. Let the true believers play around in their litter box; I got other stuff to do :)

The true believers keep throwing their litter all over my nice clean floor, that's why I don't want them playing in """their""" litter box.

Re: Proposed SEC order to freeze, repatriate Binance.US assets

#549

Post by mrguyorama »

lordfrito wrote: post #480
mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't understand how... It's actually fairly simple. They're financially invested, one of the strongest biases of all.

Hadn't considered this. I just figured there are a lot of people here that "believe" in crypto in theory but just don't happen to be playing in this space yet, instead watching from the sideline with interest. I was doing this for a long while (watching since 2011) but never spent a dime until I could be firmly convinced, which never happened. You're suggesting that most/all of these pro-crypto commenters have real s…

It's not a blind spot, it's very on brand for a VC message board to have a lot of "greed is good" philosophy people who think that making money by mild trickery is perfectly moral, and that there's nothing wrong with getting people to buy into your fancy MLM so you can extract some wealth from the system.

The only value crypto has to the vast majority of people is to exit back into fiat, and doing that is only profitable if the trade value is higher than when you bought in, and that requires new money keep entering the system to be on the other side of your exit trade.

Re: Proposed SEC order to freeze, repatriate Binance.US assets

#550

Post by mrguyorama »

lordfrito wrote: post #503
treestander wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SVB just collapsed. Do you blame the fiat dollar for that?

No, I blame the executives at a poorly run bank. SVB execs knew the risks of having too many long term low interest securities. The Fed repeatedly warned SVB about it's problems. SVB ignored internal recommendations until it was too late. If this was a systemic "fiat dollar" problem then many more banks would be failing.

Also, the "fiat dollar" system includes parts like "the justice system" that will attempt to resolve conflicts between independent parties in a fair way, and oversight system that attempts to push the value, use, and attributes of the fiat system in certain directions, which can be influenced by the democratic system, which isn't perfect but definitely exists, and includes the police system which ostensibly is there to protect your rights over any dollars you own, and a government system to offer you perks for taking part in the fiat dollar system (such as roads and other shit taxes pay for) and an economic system that assures you the availability of pretty much anything you want to trade for that fiat.

Cryptocoin enthusiasts seem to look at all that, look at how it all isn't perfect, see how that imperfection allowed a big bad event (2008) to happen, and completely throw the baby out with the bathwater. They ignore how the imperfections in the system were intentional, based on misguided and purposefully inaccurate economic theory, that was broadly popular and pushed by the broad political system because of that popularity (literally democracy), and that it can be fixed.

Instead, they want to replace it with a supposedly deflationary system (because gold bugs are still apparently taken seriously in their philosophies), where there is no such thing as property RIGHTS, because you only "have" what you physically control. This is considered a desirable property in fact. Then, this system is also DESIGNED, intentionally so, to profit a select few who already had significant resources. The system, by design, accrues more benefits to those who already have power or resources.

Then they try to tell you that this system somehow benefits you, the normal person.

It's insanity.

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