Proposed SEC order to freeze, repatriate Binance.US assets • Hacker News Board

Re: Proposed SEC order to freeze, repatriate Binance.US assets

#391

Post by varjag » Thu, Jun 08, 2023, 7:07 AM UTC

siwatanejo wrote: post #373

tsimionescu wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not being affected by QE in the medium-long term (e.g. put your savings in it and forget about for 4 years[2] Sure, why care about the possibility that cashing out early might mean you lose half your money? Trust instead in the long long long history of BTC as a stable currency.

> Trust instead in the long long long history of BTC as a stable currency. You perceive it as unstable because you're using USD as a unit-of-account. As a thought exercise, if you were using BTC as the unit of account, what you would perceive unstable is the US dollar. And what you would see is that the USD value would be trending down against BTC, especially if you choose a time-frame equal or higher than 4 years. S…

No, you will perceive each and every other currency in the world fluctuating against BTC pretty much in sync. Which suggests it's the BTC volatility that is the invariant in the system.

Re: Proposed SEC order to freeze, repatriate Binance.US assets

#392

Post by Animats » Thu, Jun 08, 2023, 7:10 AM UTC

TheDong wrote: post #382

Animats wrote: post #318

This SEC action has nothing to do with Binance being a crypto exchange. It has to do with it being an exchange, a broker, an asset custodian, a market maker, and a trader for its own account, all at once, with no regulation. Sam Bankman-Fried was lobbying Congress to make that legal. That plan went nowhere. Binance just assumed they could get away doing all that. Worse, the SEC has already found large transfers out o…

> This SEC action has nothing to do with Binance being a crypto exchange The SEC press release ( https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2023-101 ) includes a section titled "UNREGISTERED OFFER AND SALE OF CRYPTO ASSETS". The SEC also filed https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2023-102 against coinbase. The coinbase one makes it much more clear that yes, in fact, just being a crypto exchange is the same as being an…

There are legal crypto exchanges in the US. Gemini, for one.[1] They're a trust company, regulated as a bank by New York State.[2]

[1] https://www.gemini.com/

[2] https://dfs.ny.gov/apps_and_licensing/banks_and_trusts/comme...

Re: Proposed SEC order to freeze, repatriate Binance.US assets

#393

Post by TheDong » Thu, Jun 08, 2023, 7:15 AM UTC

Animats wrote: post #392

TheDong wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This SEC action has nothing to do with Binance being a crypto exchange The SEC press release ( https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2023-101 ) includes a section titled "UNREGISTERED OFFER AND SALE OF CRYPTO ASSETS". The SEC also filed https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2023-102 against coinbase. The coinbase one makes it much more clear that yes, in fact, just being a crypto exchange is the same as being an…

There are legal crypto exchanges in the US. Gemini, for one.[1] They're a trust company, regulated as a bank by New York State.[2] [1] https://www.gemini.com/ [2] https://dfs.ny.gov/apps_and_licensing/banks_and_trusts/comme...

The SEC certainly thinks gemini is running an illegal exchange, and said so quite clearly when charging them of that earlier this year: https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2023-7

The case has not been dropped, and I think pretty clearly states the SEC's opinion, which is quite consistent with what I said above. It is not legal to run a crypto exchange in the US (under current security laws I should add).

Re: Proposed SEC order to freeze, repatriate Binance.US assets

#394

Post by yyyk » Thu, Jun 08, 2023, 7:34 AM UTC

cmcaleer wrote: post #148

emodendroket wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most customers are not willing to go to these lengths unless they’re doing something illegal.

Most customers weren't willing to enter their CC information online in the late 90s and early 00s. It took horny trailblazers to get us to where we are today, to the overall benefit of e-commerce. Comparatively, putting CC info in to Coinbase and putting an address to withdraw the crypto in is far safer than what horny people did back then.

The expansion of e-commerce was parallel and had little relation to 'horny trailblazers'. The CC issue was solved by services like PayPal that intermediated CC data, better internet security and better CC dispute resolution. I know people who still hesitate before leaving CC information but would not hesitate if there's Paypal (or similar).

Re: Proposed SEC order to freeze, repatriate Binance.US assets

#395

Post by Eisenstein » Thu, Jun 08, 2023, 7:42 AM UTC

rvz wrote: post #362

TheDudeMan wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It works well for sending money across the world. Seems like a nice thing to be able to do.

Exactly. For example there is this with Stellar [0] which is certainly a use case for sending money across the world into crypto wallets, same day, near instant and very low fees. But most HNers here are not begging for donations, or suffering from starvation or are currently at war (Ukraine) or not experiencing hyperinflation (Argentina) and are not the ones who experienced their bank accounts getting locked after p…

This kind of 'you only care if it affects you' argument is so disingenuous it makes my eyes bleed. You only care about crypto because you invested in it. Please tell me how much volunteer work you have put in for food relief or refugee causes then tell me how much money you have put into crypto and then let's see if you can claim the moral high ground.

Re: Proposed SEC order to freeze, repatriate Binance.US assets

#396

Post by ethbr0 » Thu, Jun 08, 2023, 7:43 AM UTC

kahnclusions wrote: post #375

nroets wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never owned any crypto. I'm changing my tax residence for legitimate reasons. (Hardest thing I've done in my life!) But I suppose some crypto owners are changing their tax residence without declaring their crypto i.e. no deemed disposal and exit tax.

The big problem comes when they want to use their crypto horde to buy real world stuff. Want to buy a house? Now you need to convert your crypto into fiat and a deed transfer. People will start asking where your funds are coming from. This is where you tend to get caught.

> People will start asking where your funds are coming from.

This is a weird statement.

If it's a cash offer, it's a seller's job to determine if you have the money, not if you paid taxes on it.

If it's a mortgage down payment, then the bank is more interested in if your assets are going to disappear (e.g. are they actually a loan from a third party?). I've never had a mortgage bank inquire about my tax situation.

If you're talking about IRS audits... then yes, they might be curious how you purchased a giant asset without any declared income. But that's similar to any unreported income situation.

Re: Proposed SEC order to freeze, repatriate Binance.US assets

#397

Post by robryan » Thu, Jun 08, 2023, 7:43 AM UTC

siwatanejo wrote: post #373

tsimionescu wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not being affected by QE in the medium-long term (e.g. put your savings in it and forget about for 4 years[2] Sure, why care about the possibility that cashing out early might mean you lose half your money? Trust instead in the long long long history of BTC as a stable currency.

> Trust instead in the long long long history of BTC as a stable currency. You perceive it as unstable because you're using USD as a unit-of-account. As a thought exercise, if you were using BTC as the unit of account, what you would perceive unstable is the US dollar. And what you would see is that the USD value would be trending down against BTC, especially if you choose a time-frame equal or higher than 4 years. S…

With Bitcoin you have to think in terms of the exchange rate. To the extent that you can buy things in it most of that would be based off a dollar conversion. I doubt you can buy much denominated in Bitcoins at a stable price.

Re: Proposed SEC order to freeze, repatriate Binance.US assets

#398

Post by safety1st » Thu, Jun 08, 2023, 7:47 AM UTC

cycomanic wrote: post #260

nroets wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crypto is used to circumvent capital controls: In other words to create a free market in foreign exchange for countries that ban it. Crypto is also used to evade taxes. I'm not saying it's a good thing, but it's not as bad as dealing drugs or scamming people.

Why is evading tax not as bad as scamming people? Isn't it really just scamming the public (i.e. everyone)?

It's certainly more morally complex than just scamming somebody. Money is property. People generally agree that once you earn your money, it belongs to you. Is the government automatically entitled to part of it? The Boston Tea Party, the Women's Tax Resistance League, and Gandhi's Salt March are a few examples where people said no.

Usually in this context the "evaders" will refer to it as tax resistance or tax protest. It is a form of civil disobedience. The government being disobeyed, of course, is unlikely to see it that way, and in a modern context, would call it evasion. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_resistance

The Indian example is especially poignant because refusing to pay salt taxes was one of their key strategies for achieving independence from the British, and they managed to do it without firing a shot. So yeah I'd say refusing to pay the salt tax was a big win morally and probably saved a lot of lives.

What the best examples typically have in common is that the government in question didn't possess the consent of the governed. In the case of the British WTRL the refrain was "No vote, no tax." If the government won't let women vote then what right does it have to tax them? Women weren't able to indicate consent (or lack thereof) via the political process, and they were ultimately successful in their argument that this taxation without representation was unjust. Incidentally this line of thinking was expanded upon decades later across the pond in the US, which ultimately decided via the 26th amendment that it was immoral to draft men into the army when they were still too young to vote, and lowered the voting age to 18.

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_historical_acts_of_tax... for hundreds of examples you might or might not agree with ...!

Re: Proposed SEC order to freeze, repatriate Binance.US assets

#399

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jun 08, 2023, 7:49 AM UTC

tsimionescu wrote: post #367

bboygravity wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's like saying that the days of the US dollar are numbered because Bernie Madoff got caught. Makes no sense at all to me.

If Bernie Madoff had been responsible for the vast majority of dollar trading in the world, then people might make those comments when he was shut down. How much of crypto is collectively going through FTX, Binance, and Coinbase? If they are really shut down, especially in a way where it's clear their business model will not be tolerated in the USA (so no one will take their place), how much will that pull down on th…

[deleted]

Re: Proposed SEC order to freeze, repatriate Binance.US assets

#400

Post by TeMPOraL » Thu, Jun 08, 2023, 7:57 AM UTC

Gazoche wrote: post #322

raincole wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crypto's fate is bound be like those alternative Reddits and Twitters. What kind of users an alternative Reddit attracts? 1. People who don't like Reddit because of privacy concerns or other ideological reasons. 2. People who are banned by Reddit. It turns out group 2 is much larger than group 1 and the community rots. Now what kind of people who cryptos (a.k.a. alternative money) attract? 1. People who don't like ba…

There's also group 3: people who don't give a damn about crypto's actual use cases but see the line go up and think they can make a quick buck by buying at the right time. I'd wager that group 3 is much larger than groups 1 and 2.

Which is why crypto stuff goes down with a huge bang, while alternative Reddits decay and die in obscurity - in crypto case, group 3 is funding the new shitty crypto "products", while in alt Reddit case, group 3 is funding Reddit itself.

(Yes, I'm considering VCs to be part of group 3.)