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50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

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Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

#81
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Biology is good if your grades are good enough to get into a professional program. Not so much otherwise.

Biology is worthless as a major; as long as you take the pre-med requirements, they don't care what your major is. Granted, Biology requires a lot of the same classes, so it might be easier to be a bio major if you're already pre-med, but the biology degree itself isn't worth anything.

For the purpose of getting into med school, as long as you take the pre-med requirements, you are better off majoring in anything but biology.

Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

#82
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After having to deal with the MBAs that nearly took his company from him, no?

No to what? I guess my point is that the best background to have is one that's interdisciplinary. Philip did a lot of stuff at aD that wasn't engineering, but really sort of like sales - evangelism, recruiting, etc. The fact that I have a B.A., B. Sc., MBA and ABD have nothing to do with my contention. Of course, it's also better not to be old ;-)

The no was just to get confirmation of what I said. I read about it somewhere a while back but wasn't too sure if it was biased. My point was that it wasn't just walking away with the 8M and that he had to fight tooth and nail for it.

I agree that the interdisciplinary background is best to have but it's even more important to go out into the real world and use those skills. Philip was able to learn how to deal with MBAs by dealing with MBAs - might have been even better than getting an MBA.

Maybe the purpose of the MBA is to just get you accepted by the other MBA types which are in the higher level positions.

Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

#83
I know the wash-out rate at my school -- just during the "freshmen engineering" program was 50%. The next year, the wash out rate was 25%.

They don't want airline safety / nuclear reactor controls / bridges devices made by D students. And the best way to ensure that's going to happen is make the person really really really want to call himself an engineer. Its far easier to be a a liberal arts major and convince two girls to follow you back to your place.

Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

#84
post #20
post #3

Because it's far easier for a smart person to get a business degree that pays just as well, if not better? Because a degree in engineering is a fast-track to career marginalization by the frat-boy MBAs who see technical workers as interchangeable cogs? Because engineering virtually guarantees you a minimum of social interaction in college, when your peers are actually enjoying their lives? Because you'll run smack in…

Man, if it's so easy to just go get an MBA and make awesome money, why don't all us engineers just go do it then? The belief there's some kind of massive inefficiency in the market that disproportionally rewards a bunch of frat-boy do-nothings at the expensive of us geeks reeks of a little sour grapes.

I'll actually be graduating soon from an engineering program, and myself and all of my classmates face the same issues. Some have been offered lucrative careers in tech, some in consulting, some in management, and some are considering MBAs.

The answer? Because some of us actually like tech. There are two types of people who join engineering: those who have been doing it in some amateur form or another for years, and those who are in it because they had nothing else better to do, and it seemed like an ok bet.

The former won't be attracted by an MBA, because they enjoy being in the trenches, working out the difficult technical problems. They derive thrill out of the act of engineering, and that's why they are there.

The latter will inevitably go for an MBA, or go work at some bank in the vain hope that someone will notice him and promote him to day trader status (believe me, many engineering grads work at banks precisely for this reason). They have no real interest nor attachment to engineering, and will simply go for whatever pays the most.

I think the belief that all MBAs are just frat-boy do-nothing is sour grapes. That being said, I do believe that the industry and investors in general have altogether too much faith in MBAs and pure-management types. The company my father works for had its engineer-CEO retire a couple of years ago, and investors replaced him with a pure manager - someone with no engineering expertise, and is a "pure" business type. The company is floundering, selling off assets, and generally in a miserable state. To me the concept of letting non-experts in the company's field manage the company is downright insane, but yet people do it on a daily basis. If you run an engineering company, for God's sake hire a CEO who's an engineer.

Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

#85
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, as an engineer you can: -Work for a big company, a small company or just work for yourself. -Work from anywhere in the world you can take a laptop and an internet connection -Use free tools to create a product you can duplicate (and sell) infinitely -Be a part of an extremely active and passionate community that is on the cutting edge of the industry that is driving the global economy Where else ar…

The only self-employed engineer I know is a mechanical engineer who's living on food stamps, trying to get enough interest in converting vehicles to passive cooling, which seems to be her personal calling, to pay the bills.

The only self-employed engineer I know is actually not an engineering grad, but a high school dropout who has an unusually keen skill in network security, and is rolling in massive amounts of money consulting for small-to-mid-sized traditional businesses, a one man shop.

Anecdotes can always be countered by anecdotes.

You are what you make of yourself.

Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

#86
post #3

Because it's far easier for a smart person to get a business degree that pays just as well, if not better? Because a degree in engineering is a fast-track to career marginalization by the frat-boy MBAs who see technical workers as interchangeable cogs? Because engineering virtually guarantees you a minimum of social interaction in college, when your peers are actually enjoying their lives? Because you'll run smack in…

On the other hand, as an engineer you can: -Work for a big company, a small company or just work for yourself. -Work from anywhere in the world you can take a laptop and an internet connection -Use free tools to create a product you can duplicate (and sell) infinitely -Be a part of an extremely active and passionate community that is on the cutting edge of the industry that is driving the global economy Where else ar…

Yeah. For real engineers, and not just computer programmers, I would say none of those are true. Unless we're reading Wired during the dot.com era, where any yuppie anywhere could do anything via laptop and internet.

Seriously tho:

-Real Engineers are often professionally licensed. Sometimes they have to get certified in every state they operate in. Some require a minimum of 5 years of experience before you can even apply for them.

--Real Engineers use software that often doesn't play well with laptops. VLSI/VHDL apps come to mind at first. Huge PSpice sims come next. AutoCAD and all that come next. Run into issues like needing to have a license server, or hardware dongle. And some of those special engineering programs cost $25,000/license. Not free in any sense of the word.

--Real engineers -- civil engineers I'm looking at you -- are not extremely active and passionate. They are punch clock engineers. Even in undergrad civil engineers are known as 9 to 5 engineers. Being home every night to kiss your wife is apparently one of those awesome job perks in a field that's barely changed in 30 years (i'm specifically singling out highway development in civil engineering here. This isn't meant to be flamebait.)

--Real engineers often need real budgets. Which is why governments or large corporations pay for us. With government, there's a chance you might need a security clearance. No more international travel unless its cleared with the state department.

The real truth is you become an engineer to solve the really hard problems that nobody else thinks about. Like how man will colonize Mars. Or what we're going to do with all these mountains of garbage piling up. Or what's the cheapest way we can deal with nuclear waste that doesn't involve dumping it into the ocean. Or how do we effectively managing the supply chain of a nuclear power plant so it can turn a profit (this is one I'm proud to say I've tackled.). How do we get military goods from one side of the world to another on a daily basis?

You have to want it.

Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll look it up in a couple hours when I go to the library. Basically my claim comes from Alfie Kohn's book The Schools Our Children Deserve, but I'll try to find the footnote with the primary source document.

http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=10129 The report was issued by the NRC, not the NSF, but the NSF apparently agrees because they paying for an overhaul of the AP curriculum based on the report. Also, if you do a Google search for: NSF criticism of AP curriculum You see an overview of this as the second result. Also, I couldn't find this in that Alfie Kohn book, so I must have stumbled upon it in something I r…

A direct quote from that result:

"The AP and IB courses, while including some of the best education in the subject currently available at the secondary level, tend in general to be out of date, too broad, and too inflexible in their curricula."

So the argument the NRC is making is that the AP curriculum needs to be improved, but is currently some of the best available. In addition, the curriculum is being overhauled.

So what exactly is the problem with advocating increasing AB and IBO students when, even though there are problems, it's currently some of the best education available, and an overhaul to bring it in line with the NRC/NSF recommendations is underway?

Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

#88

"At the recent Web 2.0 conference John suggested that the US should staple a Green Card to every foreign student's engineering diploma and encourage them to stay in the USA." I really agree this. It's hard for a foreigner to work here.

It isn't really an unmitigated good, though. By increasing the incentive for a foreigner to get a US engineering degree, it would increase the competition for those slots, and result in fewer US students getting degrees. Of course, if the foreign degree holders stay in the US, that might be OK, but things must be thought through carefully. For example, presumably at least some people not interested in engineering, bu…

Keep in mind that all schools have a foreign student quota - i.e. slots that will either be filled by foreign students or not filled at all. Foreigners do not compete with domestic students for college enrollment at all.

I would prefer an approach that is more realistic and honest about the state of immigration - the H1B is organized as a work visa, not an immigration visa. What the US needs to do is establish means for direct immigration for qualified, professional people. The problem with H1Bs all stem from the fact that, if the recipient desires permanent residency, he/she is essentially a slave to the sponsor company for 5+ years. This encourages abuse both in employee treatment and in wages - which affects everyone.

If highly qualified people can simply immigrate to the US and find jobs, without signing themselves into virtual slavery, we would all benefit.

Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

#89
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Man, if it's so easy to just go get an MBA and make awesome money, why don't all us engineers just go do it then? The belief there's some kind of massive inefficiency in the market that disproportionally rewards a bunch of frat-boy do-nothings at the expensive of us geeks reeks of a little sour grapes.

I'll actually be graduating soon from an engineering program, and myself and all of my classmates face the same issues. Some have been offered lucrative careers in tech, some in consulting, some in management, and some are considering MBAs. The answer? Because some of us actually like tech. There are two types of people who join engineering: those who have been doing it in some amateur form or another for years , and…

"The answer? Because some of us actually like tech." - Yep.

It's true that it's much more difficult to evaluate MBA competency than engineering competency, but I do think the market is some what efficient. I've worked some pretty idiot MBAs (Harvard no less) and they haven't really gone anywhere too far.

Also, at least here in San Francisco, I've met more MBAs than I can count wishing they were engineers so they could build their ideas themselves. Consider yourself incredibly lucky and privileged to be able to take your idea from pure thought stuff to reality.

Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

#90

A 50% dropout rate may be a sign of health - it means the courses haven't been watered down. I'd be far more worried about a 95% graduation rate. States universities are less selective with general admission, so the engineering departments have to screen out the students who aren't up to the challenge. MIT pre-screens everyone so it's not fair to compare it to state schools.

I think the other problem here is that we have no information available about other programs.

Isn't it just as likely that people drop out of all or many programs at relatively the same rate? Psychology, Pre-Med, Law, Business, Journalism, Poli Sci, etc.

These are undergraduates, after all.

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