50% of US engineering students drop out - Why? • Hacker News Board

Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

#71

Post by pchristensen » Wed, Nov 12, 2008, 4:45 PM UTC

elecengin wrote: post #52

rsheridan6 wrote: post #5

Any recent engineering grads here who can tell us if there really is a shortage? If you guys are getting multiple job offers with hiring bonuses, there is. If not, there isn't.

As class of 2005 grad (who incidentally goes to Olin), I have multiple offers w/ signing bonuses. Whether this is a sign of a shortage, I am not sure.

It's a sign of a shortage of graduates that companies trust to be of a certain caliber. Either you have done something to distinguish yourself, or Olin has developed a track record that companies trust, or both.

Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

#72

Post by pchristensen » Wed, Nov 12, 2008, 4:48 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #41

mattmaroon wrote: post #18

It's not useful to compare raw numbers against India and China since their population is larger than ours. Also, what % of total college students drop out? It's got to be near 50 (though maybe less for declared majors).

Furthermore, it's stupid to compare numbers of technical graduates. It's not the numbers that count but the quality. Has there been any academic research on the average quality of technical graduates in the USA versus India and China? I don't mean just memorization of facts and formulas, but ability to creatively solve real-world problems. Perhaps that's impossible to objectively measure.

"It's not the numbers that count but the quality."

For the short term economy (1-5 yrs), the quantity counts much more than quality. If Bank of America needs to hire 500 interchangeable Java programmers, they probably can't use or manage 10 excellent programmers instead. But for the longer term, a couple Sergeys and Zuckerbergs (or for that matter, Grahams and Morrises) are much more valuable.

Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

#73

Post by lliiffee » Wed, Nov 12, 2008, 4:49 PM UTC

siong1987 wrote: post #21

"At the recent Web 2.0 conference John suggested that the US should staple a Green Card to every foreign student's engineering diploma and encourage them to stay in the USA." I really agree this. It's hard for a foreigner to work here.

It isn't really an unmitigated good, though. By increasing the incentive for a foreigner to get a US engineering degree, it would increase the competition for those slots, and result in fewer US students getting degrees. Of course, if the foreign degree holders stay in the US, that might be OK, but things must be thought through carefully. For example, presumably at least some people not interested in engineering, but interested in a green card would get degrees.

Mixing up incentives is a dangerous business. I would prefer a more mundane approach, like increasing the number of H1B visas.

Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

#74

Post by fallentimes » Wed, Nov 12, 2008, 4:49 PM UTC

nazgulnarsil wrote: post #45

fallentimes wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Accounting is more useful than finance. /did both

I slot accounting under finance. but yes. the reason those two B.S.s are useful is that there is ALWAYS work for book keepers and coders. any city, any time. Might not always be good work, but you'll always be in demand.

Unfortunately you can graduate with a degree in finance and not know shit about accounting.

Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

#75

Post by bluelu » Wed, Nov 12, 2008, 5:04 PM UTC

liuliu wrote: post #9

Well, I nearly drop out recent two years. It is unbearable in university to see so many students who are 4th year and don't have basic skills in programming (i.e. comparing two double variables in C with == operator). As playing a while with profs, I am so confident that I have all the skills and knowledges I should know in the next 3 years. It is just had to stick on CS major when you had them all. The only reason I…

That's a language issue and not a people issue. C also allows you to assign variable in if clauses, which can cause hard to find errors.

Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

#76

Post by LogicHoleFlaw » Wed, Nov 12, 2008, 5:05 PM UTC

nazgulnarsil wrote: post #45

fallentimes wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Accounting is more useful than finance. /did both

I slot accounting under finance. but yes. the reason those two B.S.s are useful is that there is ALWAYS work for book keepers and coders. any city, any time. Might not always be good work, but you'll always be in demand.

I'm a programmer writing accounting software... not always exciting work but there's no shortage of work to be done.

Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

#77

Post by bluelu » Wed, Nov 12, 2008, 5:06 PM UTC

If my university only had a 5% drop out rate, I would have studied at the wrong university. If everybody get's a degree, everybody is equal and your degree is worthless.

Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

#78

Post by ojbyrne » Wed, Nov 12, 2008, 5:37 PM UTC

dangoldin wrote: post #65

ojbyrne wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/ There's always hope that the complete collapse of the Wall Street institutions build by those "frat-boy MBAs" will change things. Probably not though. They'll get bailed out by that other frat-boy MBA institution, the government. Of course the fact that Philip Greenspun walked away from Ars Digita with ~ $8 million proves there are some opportunities.

After having to deal with the MBAs that nearly took his company from him, no?

No to what? I guess my point is that the best background to have is one that's interdisciplinary. Philip did a lot of stuff at aD that wasn't engineering, but really sort of like sales - evangelism, recruiting, etc.

The fact that I have a B.A., B. Sc., MBA and ABD have nothing to do with my contention. Of course, it's also better not to be old ;-)

Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

#79

Post by yummyfajitas » Wed, Nov 12, 2008, 5:54 PM UTC

lliiffee wrote: post #69

yummyfajitas wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compensation for teachers is fantastic, as long as you compare it properly to compensation for other workers. To begin with, multiply by (12 months worked by others)/(9 months worked by teachers). Then add in the value of the state health plan, usually fantastic. Then add in the real value of a defined benefit pension plan (chances are you only get a defined contribution plan) available in most states. Then add in th…

Your doubling the salary for teachers due to tenure is questionable. The reason tenured professors don't quit is only partly due to tenure, also due to the fact that they find being a professor more interesting than the other work. Regular (grade-school to high-school) teachers don't exactly have tenure (though for those in most unions it is close), and they probably don't have the same employment options outside the…

It's certainly questionable, I didn't mean to imply it was more than a rough guess. It's true, professor jobs at research universities have an "interestingness" premium, so part of the multiple comes from that.

On the other hand, lack of external employment options makes tenure MORE valuable, since it raises the risk premium the teacher would demand to quit the tenured job.

Since my financial math is rusty, I won't try to compute the actuarial values of these revenue streams, however.

Re: 50% of US engineering students drop out - Why?

#80

Post by emmett » Wed, Nov 12, 2008, 6:07 PM UTC

rsheridan6 wrote: post #48

nazgulnarsil wrote: post #43

I thought it was common knowledge that the only 2 useful B.S. degrees are C.S. (and related) and Finance (and related).

Biology is good if your grades are good enough to get into a professional program. Not so much otherwise.

Biology is worthless as a major; as long as you take the pre-med requirements, they don't care what your major is.

Granted, Biology requires a lot of the same classes, so it might be easier to be a bio major if you're already pre-med, but the biology degree itself isn't worth anything.