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The Nova Kakhovka Hydroelectric dam in Ukraine has been blown open

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Re: The Nova Kakhovka Hydroelectric dam in Ukraine has been blown open

#261

Post by anavat »

throw_pm23 wrote: post #223
anavat wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The water situation is way overblown. Crimea did fine since 2014 when the water was cut. There were shortages in the central and north parts but mostly because of high demand from the local industry (Crimean Titan plant) and agriculture (it is hard to believe but they were planting rice over there). It also helped that due to the climate change we had unusually heavy rains and even floods in the southern parts. Becau…

Thanks for the insightful information. What's your take on the war otherwise?

Well, I don't know what to say really. I have no idea how this all ends, and I fear it is far from over yet. I don't support Ukraine in this conflict for different reasons, one of which is that in case of their victory my family will loose everything and I'll end up in jail (and that's best case). But I cannot support Russia either because I cannot support the idiots who decided to start this war, because I cannot support the way this war was fought, and because if Russia wins I'll be sealed in one country with these idiots forever. And in the case the conflict will get frozen at some point (which is probably how it'll go because I cannot see either side winning on the battlefield), it'll just continue later. In short, I think we're screwed either way.

Re: The Nova Kakhovka Hydroelectric dam in Ukraine has been blown open

#262

Post by wkat4242 »

polotics wrote: post #250
wkat4242 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really doubt they will abandon Crimea. Russia has a huge naval base there. That's the last thing they'll give up. Flooding the area would make it much harder to cross for the Ukraineans though.

Once the Kerch bridge is cut and the southern offensive gets through to the Azov sea, they won't have any other choice but to scamper from Crimea.

I don't know. Sevastopol is super important to them. I hope they won't do anything drastic.

It's the only warm water port Russia has on the black sea. And thus full year access to the mediterranean. I doubt they will give it up. Perhaps the rest of Crimea, I could imagine. But not the base.

Re: The Nova Kakhovka Hydroelectric dam in Ukraine has been blown open

#263

Post by candiodari »

nicce wrote: post #252
Yizahi wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously ruzzia benefits, by blocking western front in preparation of the Ukrainian advance.

It blocks or slows only couple weeks at max. Not really a big gain. The river has 6 dams. Ukraine can control the upstream flow. It is estimated than in three days, the highest point in downstream is reached and then it will get lower. In the war which has lasted more than year, the benefit is meaningless. On the other hand, the flow flushes all the Russian defenses on the other side. And the source of drinkable wate…

The Ukrainian president said earlier the Russian army mined the dam, to prevent the bridge being used by Ukrainian military. Perhaps it detonated, either by accident, as a reaction to an actual Ukranian attack over the bridge, or simply because of a very nervous Russian soldier.

On the plus side, this should mean the damage should not be too bad, as Ukraine had time to prepare.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/21/zelenskiy-accu...

Re: The Nova Kakhovka Hydroelectric dam in Ukraine has been blown open

#264

Post by jevgeni »

Extasia785 wrote: post #165
jevgeni wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that the victim is not credible to you is already appaling.

You seem to be quite misinformed about the war. It's openly known that Ukraine is running propaganda campaigns and intentionally publishes misleading information, to win the information war. Note, this isn't bad and in fact is encouraged by us western allies. We *want* Ukraine to lie. In fact that's how the last counter offensive happened. Ukraine ran a massive propaganda campaign about their "offensive" in the south…

You know, as a Ukrainian, what I appreciate the most is someone claiming to both be "in a comfy chair" and lecturing me on what is going on in my country of origin.

You have three potential explanations:

(1) The agressor, who:

- Has a history of using the very same tactics in Ukraine and sacrificing thousands of its citizens in burnt Earth approach,

- Has shot down a commercial airline "by mistake" several years ago

- Has a history and culture of endemic lying, which they also foster in Western countries through soft power and social network campaigns

- Who have started shelling the very citizens in Kherson they claimed to have liberated once they lost the city

- Benefits from the flooding massively, because it blocks off the looming counteroffensive by Ukraine

(2) The victim, who:

- Gains nothing on the battlefield by doing this and actually makes it more difficult for them.

- Has to sacrifice the lives of its own civilian population to achieve this.

- Has no history of such misinformation tactics.

(3) Force majeur.

But wait, here come the enlightened HN commenters to assign equal probability to all three explanations, disregarding all of the above, because:

- They haven't bothered to actually inform themselves (thinking that *oligarchs*, even with a Ukrainian citizenship, have nothing to do with russian secret service is another level of naive)

- They feel entitled to have an uninformed opinion

- Imply that the lives of Ukrainians are worth so little that their government would willingly sacrifice them.

Thanks, but I'll keep the outrage.

Re: The Nova Kakhovka Hydroelectric dam in Ukraine has been blown open

#265

Post by _kbh_ »

anavat wrote: post #261
throw_pm23 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the insightful information. What's your take on the war otherwise?

Well, I don't know what to say really. I have no idea how this all ends, and I fear it is far from over yet. I don't support Ukraine in this conflict for different reasons, one of which is that in case of their victory my family will loose everything and I'll end up in jail (and that's best case). But I cannot support Russia either because I cannot support the idiots who decided to start this war, because I cannot su…

> I don't support Ukraine in this conflict for different reasons, one of which is that in case of their victory my family will loose everything and I'll end up in jail (and that's best case).

Why would this happen?.

Re: The Nova Kakhovka Hydroelectric dam in Ukraine has been blown open

#266

Post by [deleted] »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #180
vlovich123 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Collapsed due to damage“. Looks pretty clearly like an explosion. Russian state news agency. The fine folks that bring news reports like “local nerd found hitting himself by school bully”

Interesting follow-up by the same poster here, quoting WaPo tweeting some Maxar photos, showing that the dam seems to have suffered some damage in the past week - adding credence to the possibility that it did, in fact, "collapsed due to damage", without either side specifically pulling the trigger today. https://twitter.com/AricToler/status/1665937030222692352 But that brings up the question, what was happening ther…

[deleted]

Re: The Nova Kakhovka Hydroelectric dam in Ukraine has been blown open

#267

Post by kuboris »

The destruction of the Nova Kakhovka dam by Russians follows almost exactly all the other heinous crimes Russians have committed:

1. Execute the crime

2. Laugh and brag

3. Realize the catastrophe

4. Change the story and blame others

https://twitter.com/Tendar/status/1666033978841636866

Re: The Nova Kakhovka Hydroelectric dam in Ukraine has been blown open

#268

Post by nicce »

candiodari wrote: post #263
nicce wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It blocks or slows only couple weeks at max. Not really a big gain. The river has 6 dams. Ukraine can control the upstream flow. It is estimated than in three days, the highest point in downstream is reached and then it will get lower. In the war which has lasted more than year, the benefit is meaningless. On the other hand, the flow flushes all the Russian defenses on the other side. And the source of drinkable wate…

The Ukrainian president said earlier the Russian army mined the dam, to prevent the bridge being used by Ukrainian military. Perhaps it detonated, either by accident, as a reaction to an actual Ukranian attack over the bridge, or simply because of a very nervous Russian soldier. On the plus side, this should mean the damage should not be too bad, as Ukraine had time to prepare. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/…

On the other hand, also the Russian has claimed Ukraine on planning the for blowing the dam.

https://www.voanews.com/a/latest-developments-in-ukraine-oct...

None of the parties have supporting evidence (not for mines as well).

Both parties are in information warfare, and everything is used for their own benefits. Everything they say, should be taken with a grain of salt.

Immediately, when the dam was exploded, Zelensky said that now the world must react, and drive Russians from Ukraine, from all the territory and corners they have taken.

https://twitter.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1666050733773299714?c...

https://twitter.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1665952784665964545?c...

Re: The Nova Kakhovka Hydroelectric dam in Ukraine has been blown open

#269

Post by _kbh_ »

nicce wrote: post #268
candiodari wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Ukrainian president said earlier the Russian army mined the dam, to prevent the bridge being used by Ukrainian military. Perhaps it detonated, either by accident, as a reaction to an actual Ukranian attack over the bridge, or simply because of a very nervous Russian soldier. On the plus side, this should mean the damage should not be too bad, as Ukraine had time to prepare. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/…

On the other hand, also the Russian has claimed Ukraine on planning the for blowing the dam. https://www.voanews.com/a/latest-developments-in-ukraine-oct... None of the parties have supporting evidence (not for mines as well). Both parties are in information warfare, and everything is used for their own benefits. Everything they say, should be taken with a grain of salt. Immediately, when the dam was exploded, Zelens…

Here's a video of a Russian soldier doing everything short of admitting they did it.

https://twitter.com/den_kazansky/status/1666003021925347328

Re: The Nova Kakhovka Hydroelectric dam in Ukraine has been blown open

#270

Post by fennecfoxy »

autoexec wrote: post #202
jakubadamw wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

War as an impersonal phenomenon doesn't bring anything inherently, saying so simply blurs individual responsibility. It's up to the belligerents, up to the individual commanders, units and members of armed forces to decide what and whom they target. Targetting a dam by the Russians is a war crime per Art. 56 of the 1977 Additional Protocol I of the Geneva Conventions.

Is Russia the kind of country that would kill you or members of your family if you were in uniform and didn't follow orders? I honestly don't know. I do think individual responsibility absolutely has a place for acts in war, but I'd want that informed by that what choices those individuals had available and what they'd have understood the consequences of their choices would be.

Of course they are, they've done it the whole war.

Most of the time executing civilian men as per our gender's supposed "main purpose" in life.

But they have also executed women and children indiscriminately as well. There are recorded radio conversations of Russian soldiers explaining their orders as "kill everyone, I don't care who they are".

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