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The Wait Until 8th pledge

waituntil8th.org

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Re: The Wait Until 8th pledge

#131

Post by throwaway2037 »

npunt wrote: post #105
elzbardico wrote: post #72

This is the easy way out of the problem, but I am afraid, not the correct one. My kid has had his own tablet since 6, his own PC since 8, and his own cellular since 9. So far he hasn't turned into a domestic terrorist, and neither is he selling heroin for crypto on the dark web. Also, he has specific times when he can use his devices аnd limits on how much time. All modern OSes have some sort of parental controls bui…

That's cool you, a tech-savvy HN poster, has managed to wield technology to find a high-reward/low-risk way to parent using devices, but perhaps your 'correct' solution may not work in all contexts for all people. Perhaps you just have a kid who has the right temperament to handle devices when young. Perhaps you work few enough hours or have the resources necessary to parent in a way to make this work. Perhaps the ki…

This is the perfect reply. You said it better than I could. This parent has the three "perhaps" and hardly knows it. This is another good example of HN exceptionalism.

It is ironic that the Silicon Valley millionaires made rich by the attention addicting apps also work very hard to limit their own children's access and screen time.

Re: The Wait Until 8th pledge

#132

Post by autoexec »

elzbardico wrote: post #119
autoexec wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can give your child access to technology, allow them to play with their friends, watch space launches etc. without handing them over to corporations who are only interested in exploiting and manipulating them. It's great that your kid isn't a terrorist. It's a shame, that at age 6 there's already a collection of dossiers being stuffed with data about your child which will follow them for their entire life. It's a…

Smart Phones are computers, in a different form factor. Giving you kid an smartphone doesn't mean you need to give him access to facebook, twitter, instagram or tiktok.

Smart phones are poor computers. They also come with social media apps preloaded (the last cell phone I bought prevented deleting or uninstalling facebook) although that doesn't mean you can't order your children not to create accounts. They're also difficult to lockdown and monitor, and they continuously broadcast copious amounts of data about your children to third parties. Children would be much better served by having a real PC they can play with and learn on.

Re: The Wait Until 8th pledge

#133

Post by skilled »

And yet another HN thread where no one can find common ground but can certainly find plenty of arguments why it's good or healthy to get kids hooked on mobile devices from the age of 5.

Re: The Wait Until 8th pledge

#134

Post by autoexec »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #129
autoexec wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect that's true, more eyes would help, but honestly the greatest risk to kids from kidnappers and molesters has always come from their own families and other adults close to the family, and not strangers lurking in playgrounds. Some people are in areas with high crime rates (lots of gang violence for example) but mostly cities are safer than ever. It's nice when you've got a real community of people who know ea…

I'm aware of those stats. Rest assured, molestation tends to happen in private, without witnesses. It also means if a kid gets hurt, someone can run get a grown up. They aren't stuck somewhere unable to get help with no witnesses.

No argument there!

Re: The Wait Until 8th pledge

#135

Post by 411111111111111 »

elzbardico wrote: post #72

This is the easy way out of the problem, but I am afraid, not the correct one. My kid has had his own tablet since 6, his own PC since 8, and his own cellular since 9. So far he hasn't turned into a domestic terrorist, and neither is he selling heroin for crypto on the dark web. Also, he has specific times when he can use his devices аnd limits on how much time. All modern OSes have some sort of parental controls bui…

> We are supposed to parent. Part of the parenting stuff means supervising and guiding in all environments your kid has contact with, including screens.

That's your interpretation of the parenting role. It might be agreeable for a lot of people on this forum, but that's mostly because we're all a self selected group.

Historically speaking, children were free to learn unguided and parents only interfered if the kids didn't do their jobs, which was literal work on a farm or similar.

I'm not advocating for child labor, but your opinion that it's your job to literally supervise your child learning is also a quiet extreme position from my point of view.

Re: The Wait Until 8th pledge

#136

Post by xlii »

annie_muss wrote: post #96

I sincerely hope this works. I am a full blown screen addict. Screens and devices have basically been my life since I was very young. It's too late for me but I hope interventions and support while people are young will give them the skills and abilities to manage computer and device usage effectively when they grow older.

> It’s too late for me

I don’t want to push anything on you, but it’s far from “too late”. Neuroplasticity is a thing in the worst cass but there are also other things to consider.

Some physical conditions can be addiction inducing. Also - some form of anxieties induce escapism that can manifest through usage. There’s ADHD that (in some instances) seeks constant stimulation and, for example, create tendency of having everywhere phone companion and many autism related conditions that are attracted by hypnotic effect of screens in general.

If you want your behavior to change, I’m very confident you can, but you need to contact the specialist.

Neither ADHD nor autism-spectrum disorders, for example, aren’t treatable by psychotherapy. Many try, fail to change and then get into the false belief they’re lost cause.

If you want to change anything in your life we have today a lot of knowledge and specialists that can aid you in process.

But if you don’t and it’s not disruptive to your lifestyle - why worry?

Re: The Wait Until 8th pledge

#137

Post by pantalaimon »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #115
autoexec wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't even buy that it's less safe to play outside, but parents refuse to let their kids do it and those that do have occasionally faced problems with police and child services for doing what parents have allowed their kids to do for generations. It's no surprise kids are turning to screens when they aren't allowed to walk to school let alone ride a bike with friends or go to a park on their own. I also agree that…

It can be less safe in part because there are fewer eyes on the street. If everyone has a lot of kids and a lot of those kids are outside together playing stick ball or whatever, it's much less likely one of them will be molested, kidnapped, etc.

The greater danger is them being run over by cars

Re: The Wait Until 8th pledge

#138

Post by npunt »

elzbardico wrote: post #116
npunt wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's cool you, a tech-savvy HN poster, has managed to wield technology to find a high-reward/low-risk way to parent using devices, but perhaps your 'correct' solution may not work in all contexts for all people. Perhaps you just have a kid who has the right temperament to handle devices when young. Perhaps you work few enough hours or have the resources necessary to parent in a way to make this work. Perhaps the ki…

well, I am not telling everyone should do the same as me. I just don't want someone telling me that I should not do it. Because that's the final goal of such movements: start with "voluntary pledges", move into social stigmatization of dissidents, capture organizational rule, and then, finally, the law. The same script as the prohibition. It is an inexorable and fairly predictable movement, probably a cultural herita…

I respect that you want to make that call for your kids, I'm not in favor of one size fits all solutions.

What you're describing here tho is a textbook slippery slope argument [1] in reaction to a small movement suggesting some restraint around an incredibly powerful force affecting most people on the planet.

Perhaps it may lead to prohibition, but perhaps it may just lead to OS developers building better controls than the terribly weak ones we have today. Movements raise awareness, and there's lots of room for spaces in-between. After all, we never banned TVs, books, or games, and they were all in this class of problem.

Personally, I see this as 'antithesis' to the smartphone's 'thesis', and we will probably find a synthesis somewhere in between as the dust settles.

fwiw, "If your kid is addicted to screens, it is on you" and (paraphrasing) 'this is not the correct way out of the problem' is what you said, which sounds a lot like you're implying others should do the same as you. You wrote a long and thought out enough comment to add nuance but you didn't, so its hard not to assume thats what you meant.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

Re: The Wait Until 8th pledge

#139

Post by gnicholas »

elzbardico wrote: post #119
autoexec wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can give your child access to technology, allow them to play with their friends, watch space launches etc. without handing them over to corporations who are only interested in exploiting and manipulating them. It's great that your kid isn't a terrorist. It's a shame, that at age 6 there's already a collection of dossiers being stuffed with data about your child which will follow them for their entire life. It's a…

Smart Phones are computers, in a different form factor. Giving you kid an smartphone doesn't mean you need to give him access to facebook, twitter, instagram or tiktok.

That's true, though it's harder than it looks to keep the kid off those services. You can block the app, but what if they go in through the web browser. Maybe there's a way to block certain websites on the device, but who knows if kids use proxies or alternate browsers to get around such blocks. It seems like a cat-and-mouse game that's hard to win because kids are highly motivated to get around parental controls, and once one kid discovers a workaround it would be widely shared.

Re: The Wait Until 8th pledge

#140

Post by devjab »

jenadine wrote: post #130
devjab wrote: post #82

In Denmark we are on the brink of banning smartphones in schools. Not because we want to but because all the science point toward them being dangerous. I’m personally not on the hardliner side, but I’ve yet to see a single argument as to why children need to have access to a smartphone during class except for cases of accessibility. All of the pro phones in school voices in the debate here are from the tech industry…

> I plan on doing something similar with my children You plan to go to a public library to show them a video in which a picture of Pamela Anderson in a swimsuit is appearing line by line?

Well, my parents didn’t go with me. So no. I’m under no illusions that my children won’t do something similar though, and I’m not certain our plans will even be possible to implement without bans. It’s the old dilemma of sort of having to follow the herd. This pledge is nice and all, but like I said, I’m not on the hardliner side, and I’m not convinced being the only parents sending your child to school without a smartphone is a good idea either.

Somewhat unrelated, we have a technology museum in town where you can try an 1995 internet simulator. Not sure if pictures of Pamala Anderson in swimsuits is part of it though. Probably not.

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