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macOS 14 will support JPEG XL

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Re: macOS 14 will support JPEG XL

#61

Post by coldtea »

PaulHoule wrote: post #5
amoerie wrote: post #2

As a radiology software developer: please please let JPEG XL become a thing. I sincerely hope this might make Chrome change its mind. JPEG XL is a game changer for 16 bit lossless images. The technical landscape for these kinds of images today is barren.

As a mirrorless photographer who wants to publish photos on the web that look like they came out of a mirrorless camera I want JPEG XL. In trials I've done, AVIF works well for a throwaway splash image for a blog but compression results are not so impressive compared to JPEG or WEBP if you want the image to hold up under close inspection. On the other hand there is something that seems almost infantile about image su…

>As a mirrorless photographer who wants to publish photos on the web that look like they came out of a mirrorless camera I want JPEG XL.

As if people would have the screen to properly watch them? Perhaps a handful of high-end laptop owners... Except if those are the intended audience.

>image codecs are definitely a userspace thing and as a Windows or Linux user I never wait for my OS to support an image format, I just install the codec and code away.

That's how you get half the apps supporting them (if you're lucky) and others not, and generally a hell of a time...

Re: macOS 14 will support JPEG XL

#62

Post by coldtea »

woah wrote: post #12
PaulHoule wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a mirrorless photographer who wants to publish photos on the web that look like they came out of a mirrorless camera I want JPEG XL. In trials I've done, AVIF works well for a throwaway splash image for a blog but compression results are not so impressive compared to JPEG or WEBP if you want the image to hold up under close inspection. On the other hand there is something that seems almost infantile about image su…

Dumb question, but why is OS or browser support necessary? Couldn't an HTML canvas element and some JS that can parse the file format display any kind of image that you might want?

Yes, if you don't care for loading speed, battery life, and the fans blazing...

Re: macOS 14 will support JPEG XL

#63

Post by alwillis »

Here's the text of the WWDC session description that will cover JPEG XL [1]:

Learn about the latest image formats and video technologies supported in Safari 17. Discover how you can use JPEG XL, AVIF, and HEIC in your websites and experiences and learn how they differ from previous formats. We’ll also show you how the Managed Media Source API draws less power than Media Source Extensions (MSE) and explore how you can use it to more efficiently manage streaming video over 5G.

The link isn't live yet as the session is scheduled for Thursday, June 8th.

[1]: https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2023/10122/

Re: macOS 14 will support JPEG XL

#64

Post by sparker72678 »

coldtea wrote: post #61
PaulHoule wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a mirrorless photographer who wants to publish photos on the web that look like they came out of a mirrorless camera I want JPEG XL. In trials I've done, AVIF works well for a throwaway splash image for a blog but compression results are not so impressive compared to JPEG or WEBP if you want the image to hold up under close inspection. On the other hand there is something that seems almost infantile about image su…

> As a mirrorless photographer who wants to publish photos on the web that look like they came out of a mirrorless camera I want JPEG XL. As if people would have the screen to properly watch them? Perhaps a handful of high-end laptop owners... Except if those are the intended audience. > image codecs are definitely a userspace thing and as a Windows or Linux user I never wait for my OS to support an image format, I j…

There are hundreds of millions of recent iPhones with outstanding OLED displays out there.

Re: macOS 14 will support JPEG XL

#65

Post by cjawdb »

jez wrote: post #31
amoerie wrote: post #2

As a radiology software developer: please please let JPEG XL become a thing. I sincerely hope this might make Chrome change its mind. JPEG XL is a game changer for 16 bit lossless images. The technical landscape for these kinds of images today is barren.

> I sincerely hope this might make Chrome change its mind. I take this to suggest that Chrome actively decided against implementing JPEG XL? Did they consider supporting it and reject support for it, or has it simply not been prioritized, but still might be prioritized one day? If the decision was intentional: did they state a reason why?

This is the terrible explanation they gave for dropping support:

https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=117805...

"Thank you everyone for your comments and feedback regarding JPEG XL. We will be removing the JPEG XL code and flag from Chromium for the following reasons:

- Experimental flags and code should not remain indefinitely

- There is not enough interest from the entire ecosystem to continue experimenting with JPEG XL

- The new image format does not bring sufficient incremental benefits over existing formats to warrant enabling it by default

- By removing the flag and the code in M110, it reduces the maintenance burden and allows us to focus on improving existing formats in Chrome"

The issue on the Chromium tracker is now one of the most-starred and most-commented-on of all time because people from all over came to tell Google that they're insane, from Intel to Adobe to Facebook to Krita to Cloudinary to Shopify to Serif/Affinity to the VESA DisplayHDR Chairman.

It may also be worth noting that the author of commit to remove support from Chromium appears to be a WebP co-author, having given talks about WebP and being the primary contributor to libwebp.

https://chromium-review.googlesource.com/c/chromium/src/+/40...

https://chromium.googlesource.com/webm/libwebp/+log

Re: macOS 14 will support JPEG XL

#66

Post by [deleted] »

jez wrote: post #31
amoerie wrote: post #2

As a radiology software developer: please please let JPEG XL become a thing. I sincerely hope this might make Chrome change its mind. JPEG XL is a game changer for 16 bit lossless images. The technical landscape for these kinds of images today is barren.

> I sincerely hope this might make Chrome change its mind. I take this to suggest that Chrome actively decided against implementing JPEG XL? Did they consider supporting it and reject support for it, or has it simply not been prioritized, but still might be prioritized one day? If the decision was intentional: did they state a reason why?

[deleted]

Re: macOS 14 will support JPEG XL

#67

Post by alwillis »

slig wrote: post #22
masswerk wrote: post #9

Finally, a good reason to upgrade (again).

Is there a specific reason why this has to be a OS update thing? I know that it's likely that they don't update the emoji font outside major OS updates so people have an extra reason to update.

> Is there a specific reason why this has to be a OS update thing?

The way Apple does it, it's cleaner to implement the APIs for this sort of thing in a new operating system version, especially if it requires features not present in the current versions of the operating system.

They could make an exception for Safari by including the required code to support JPEG XL in Safari Technology Preview on Ventura to allow developers to test their sites and web apps until macOS, iOS, etc. ship in the fall.

I suspect we'll learn what the plan is as the Safari/WebKit team make more announcements during WWDC: https://www.webkit.org/blog/14203/web-technology-sessions-at...

Re: macOS 14 will support JPEG XL

#68

Post by cjawdb »

Gigachad wrote: post #14
chungy wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the only justification being "nobody wanted it", a plainly false statement. WebP isn't good enough. AVIF isn't good enough. JPEG XL is good enough.

Their justification was more that adding it would be committing a lot of hardware and software vendors to support it which would be very expensive for not enough gain.

More accurately, their justification was based on discredited benchmarks (which used a fairly old-even-at-the-time version of libjxl and IIRC created by the AVIF team)... and the commit to remove support was created by a co-author of WebP who gives talks on WebP and is the primary contributor to libwebp.

The Chromium issue where they made this decision is full of "hardware and software vendors" (Adobe, Serif/Affinity, Krita, Facebook, Shopify, Cloudinary, Intel, Nvidia, the VESA DisplayHDR Chairman) telling them they're making a terrible decision and is one of the most-starred and most-commented-on issues of all time for Chromium.

https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=117805...

Re: macOS 14 will support JPEG XL

#69

Post by ShadowBanThis01 »

woah wrote: post #12
PaulHoule wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a mirrorless photographer who wants to publish photos on the web that look like they came out of a mirrorless camera I want JPEG XL. In trials I've done, AVIF works well for a throwaway splash image for a blog but compression results are not so impressive compared to JPEG or WEBP if you want the image to hold up under close inspection. On the other hand there is something that seems almost infantile about image su…

Dumb question, but why is OS or browser support necessary? Couldn't an HTML canvas element and some JS that can parse the file format display any kind of image that you might want?

Why down-mod this straightforward question?

Come on, people.

Re: macOS 14 will support JPEG XL

#70

Post by rpbiwer2 »

kps wrote: post #4

Excellent. JPEG XL is a usable general-purpose image format, not just a passive delivery format like WebP and AVIF.

I'm not very familiar with media encoding formats. What makes webp and avif well suited for delivery but not general purpose?
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