Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46 • Hacker News Board

Re: Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

#141

Post by tdba » Sat, Jun 03, 2023, 6:38 PM UTC

eschulz wrote: post #10

The Nuremberg Trials were fascinating. While I think many of the individuals leading the tribunal were trying to do a good job in the tradition of their respective nations' legal frameworks, the victorious allies could really not see eye to eye on what was a fair measure of retribution, rehabilitation, deterrence, etc. So my take is that largely all legal norms were discarded or violated, and the tribunal had to reac…

One of the main points against the validity of the Trials is that some of the most high profile defendants confessed to things that were either not true or greatly exaggerated versions of the truth. E.g. Rudolf Hoess, the commandant of Auschwitz, confessed to having murdered three million people there, whereas in reality the number could not have been much more than 1 million.

Re: Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

#142

Post by CamperBob2 » Sat, Jun 03, 2023, 7:27 PM UTC

rightbyte wrote: post #96

CamperBob2 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to derail the thread by getting into that; you can ask people from Ukraine to Cambodia to Indonesia to Latin America about the real-world effects of his brand of realpolitik . He's a big fan of placating dictators and invaders by ceding other peoples' territory to them.

Not being a warmonger is a bad thing? The real nightmare is if the US deny you your right to lose. Like Vietnam.

Not being a warmonger is a bad thing?

When war comes to your doorstep, yes, not being a warmonger is a bad thing. Bullies understand only force and violence. They will not listen to reason, and they will not return the favor after you come to their aid. Kissinger, who spent his youth being bullied by real, live Nazis, should have understood that.

And when your cause is just, you need to be able to count on help from friendly Western democracies, not debates over how much of your country should be turned over to your attacker.

Re: Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

#143

Post by CamperBob2 » Sat, Jun 03, 2023, 7:37 PM UTC

eyelidlessness wrote: post #99

CamperBob2 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chomsky has proven to be a rather biased observer in the "yeahbutwhatabout" game. Which is saying something, considering his ethnic heritage and the fact that we're talking about Nazis. If he and Kissinger were on fire and I only had one glass of water, I'd drink it.

You’re being downvoted, but I’ll say this as someone who would be on Chomsky’s side if he bothered to even be on his own damn side… yeah, I’d drink the water too.

Exactly, they both talk a good game (as do the downvoters, no doubt), but when it comes time to live up to their ideals they always seem to have pressing business elsewhere.

See also Roger Waters, who wouldn't get any from me either.

Re: Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

#144

Post by emkemp » Sat, Jun 03, 2023, 7:55 PM UTC

pseudo0 wrote: post #127

sorokod wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"So my take is that largely all legal norms were discarded or violated" Could you give some examples?

The Nuremberg Charter effectively admits this: > The Tribunal shall not be bound by technical rules of evidence. It shall adopt and apply to the greatest possible extent expeditious and nontechnical procedure, and shall admit any evidence which it deems to be of probative value. You can't have a fair trial when the prosecution gets to admit whatever evidence it wants, including evidence that would normally be inadmis…

I think labeling it a "show trial" goes too far. Three of the original defendants (Fritzsche, von Papen, and Schacht) were acquitted; and Doenitz was spared the death penalty for his unrestricted submarine warfare orders because similar orders were issued by the victorious Allies. I doubt a full-on show trial would have been as just or merciful.

Re: Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

#145

Post by hackandthink » Sun, Jun 04, 2023, 5:08 AM UTC

hef19898 wrote: post #106

hackandthink wrote: post #92

The Nazis and german soldiers killed many million people. How many were accused in Nuremberg: International Military Tribunal: 24 accused Nuremberg Military Tribunals (12 trials): 185 accused

I agree that nowhere near enough Nazi war criminals were tried, after all there were records proofing whom those were. Using that fact to what, discredit the Nürnberg trials is disengenious. Because a) they included all allies and actually tried to prosecute (the equivilant in Japan was already much more influenced by the looming Cold War) and b) a lot more, albeit still not enough, war criminals were tried in other…

> I agree that nowhere near enough Nazi war criminals were tried, after all there were records proofing whom those were.

Yes this was my point. I do not want to discredit the Nuremberg Trials, they did the right thing and they did a good job.

Re: Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

#146

Post by IceHegel » Mon, Jun 05, 2023, 3:41 AM UTC

refurb wrote: post #55

pyinstallwoes wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like what?

"It questions the commonly held belief that the Allies wanted to avoid the war at all costs but were forced into action by Adolf Hitler's aggression. It consists largely of official government transcripts, newspaper articles, and other documents from the time, with Baker only occasionally interjecting commentary. Baker cites documents that suggest that the leaders of the United States and the United Kingdom were prov…

If you're just pasting in the wikipedia article, why didn't you include the next paragraph?

Other reviewers praised the book's use of documentary research as well as its intricate construction. Irish novelist Colm Toibin wrote in his New York Times review that "the issues Baker wishes to raise, and the stark system he has used to dramatize his point, make his book a serious and conscientious contribution to the debate about pacifism."[1]

Anyway, I've actually read it and found the perspective enlightening even as someone obsessed with WWII since I was 12.

Re: Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

#147

Post by goodSteveramos » Mon, Jun 05, 2023, 4:33 PM UTC

oezi wrote: post #89

goodSteveramos wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats not incorrect. The idea that people working for companies making basic supplies are guilty of murder for what their own government did with said supplies without their knowledge is so absurd that by your own admission they were not even tried. But that makes the trials of people who were fair? How about you directly enumerate the rights they were or were not afforded to determine if their trials were fair.

> without their knowledge I would beg to differ. The industrial magnates of this German era where all well aware of what their supplies were going towards: A 'total war' that didn't stop at exterminating anybody considered inferior. Each individual case is certainly difficult but there is a line where you can and should be tried as an employee for participating in something which violates laws and or ethical boundari…

Firstly, Zyklon B is not “nerve gas” its cyanide that was manufactured as an insecticide to disinfect lice. If you have proof that the employees making it had knowledge of its use as a murder weapon please present it. Otherwise you are just going on a witch hunt to enact vengeance on people just for being German.

Re: Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

#148

Post by oezi » Tue, Jun 06, 2023, 8:43 PM UTC

goodSteveramos wrote: post #147

oezi wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> without their knowledge I would beg to differ. The industrial magnates of this German era where all well aware of what their supplies were going towards: A 'total war' that didn't stop at exterminating anybody considered inferior. Each individual case is certainly difficult but there is a line where you can and should be tried as an employee for participating in something which violates laws and or ethical boundari…

Firstly, Zyklon B is not “nerve gas” its cyanide that was manufactured as an insecticide to disinfect lice. If you have proof that the employees making it had knowledge of its use as a murder weapon please present it. Otherwise you are just going on a witch hunt to enact vengeance on people just for being German.

As a German I am a bit saddened that you are coming to defend some of the most murderous tools of mass annihilation.

Zyklon A (the predecessor product) was banned after the first world war due to its use as a weapon in the war.

And Bruno Tesch - the inventor of Zyklon B - was executed in 1946 for knowingly selling the product to the SS for use on humans (at least according to Wikipedia).

In essence, the people in Germany knew very well what their leadership was doing and they supported it. Too few were ever held accountable.

This is not about vengeance (there isn't such a concept in the modern justice systems, right?). It is about accountability for your own atrocities. Germans grow up learning this in the hope it can prevent another event like the Holocaust.

This kind of accountability extends to everyone. Even scientists in the trenches who participate developing those technologies that might be misused.

Re: Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

#149

Post by goodSteveramos » Thu, Jun 15, 2023, 10:07 AM UTC

oezi wrote: post #148

goodSteveramos wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firstly, Zyklon B is not “nerve gas” its cyanide that was manufactured as an insecticide to disinfect lice. If you have proof that the employees making it had knowledge of its use as a murder weapon please present it. Otherwise you are just going on a witch hunt to enact vengeance on people just for being German.

As a German I am a bit saddened that you are coming to defend some of the most murderous tools of mass annihilation. Zyklon A (the predecessor product) was banned after the first world war due to its use as a weapon in the war. And Bruno Tesch - the inventor of Zyklon B - was executed in 1946 for knowingly selling the product to the SS for use on humans (at least according to Wikipedia). In essence, the people in Ger…

Once again you just keep asserting things without any evidence and in its place attack anyone who asks for it as “defending murderers” as if that is a foregone conclusion. This is the logic of charlatans and liars my friend. Think a bit harder about why you believe these things and if it is evidence and not emotion share it with me please.

Re: Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

#150

Post by goodSteveramos » Thu, Jun 15, 2023, 10:14 AM UTC

jpmoral wrote: post #131

goodSteveramos wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats not incorrect. The idea that people working for companies making basic supplies are guilty of murder for what their own government did with said supplies without their knowledge is so absurd that by your own admission they were not even tried. But that makes the trials of people who were fair? How about you directly enumerate the rights they were or were not afforded to determine if their trials were fair.

@vkou mentioned industrialists, not rank-and-file employees.

Ok. Can anyone name an industrialist and present evidence that he thought people were being murdered with his company’s products? If not this is just mindless lashing out at powerless Germans for losing the war.