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Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

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Re: Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

#91

Post by ok_dad »

goodSteveramos wrote: post #72
vkou wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incorrect. Most of them weren't even tried . And of those that were, most of the ones who fought the charges weren't convicted, or were convicted of far lesser charges. Only a few got death sentences. ... For instance, the industrialists that bankrolled the Nazis, ran their factories with slave labour, and made posion gas for exterminating Jews and other victims of fascism got 2 to 7 years, with most of them being ac…

Thats not incorrect. The idea that people working for companies making basic supplies are guilty of murder for what their own government did with said supplies without their knowledge is so absurd that by your own admission they were not even tried. But that makes the trials of people who were fair? How about you directly enumerate the rights they were or were not afforded to determine if their trials were fair.

[flagged]

Re: Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

#93

Post by eyelidlessness »

goodSteveramos wrote: post #72
vkou wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incorrect. Most of them weren't even tried . And of those that were, most of the ones who fought the charges weren't convicted, or were convicted of far lesser charges. Only a few got death sentences. ... For instance, the industrialists that bankrolled the Nazis, ran their factories with slave labour, and made posion gas for exterminating Jews and other victims of fascism got 2 to 7 years, with most of them being ac…

Thats not incorrect. The idea that people working for companies making basic supplies are guilty of murder for what their own government did with said supplies without their knowledge is so absurd that by your own admission they were not even tried. But that makes the trials of people who were fair? How about you directly enumerate the rights they were or were not afforded to determine if their trials were fair.

> The idea that people working for companies making basic supplies are guilty of murder for what their own government did with said supplies without their knowledge is so absurd

That idea is absurd.

Re: Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

#94

Post by hef19898 »

ekianjo wrote: post #84
refurb wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that, there was agreement among the allies on which war criminals would be turned over to whom for punishment. So the USSR might have preferred a trial since those who committed the worst offenses in the USSR would be turned over to them instead of being shot by the British. A good example are the Cossacks that fought on the side of the Axis. Although they were taken as POWs by the US and UK, they were put o…

Most germans POW in Russia were never returned back to their country after the war and died in russian camps.

That's what people believe. It took quite a whilemlonger for German POWs in the USSR tonreturn, butvthe Adenauer government ultimately srtuckna deal, and they returned. By the way, the survival rate of those POWs wasn't that bad neither. Especially given the overall situation of the USSR at the time.

Re: Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

#95

Post by hef19898 »

readonthegoapp wrote: post #78
winrid wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's peobably worth noting Doenitz still spent 10 years in prison for crimes against peace. He didn't get out early because he wouldn't denounce his allegiance to Hitler, either.

you are saying that US military leaders should have served time too?

In just and fair world, yes. In the real world we live in, not so much.

Examples of action nobody was tried for, Axis or Allies: Strategic terror bombing of civilians and civilian infrastructure, unrestricted submarine warfare.

Re: Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

#96

Post by rightbyte »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #83
boppo1 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone seems to hate Kissinger except my late ethnic german grandma who lived through WW2 in Berlin. What did he do?

I don't want to derail the thread by getting into that; you can ask people from Ukraine to Cambodia to Indonesia to Latin America about the real-world effects of his brand of realpolitik . He's a big fan of placating dictators and invaders by ceding other peoples' territory to them.

Not being a warmonger is a bad thing? The real nightmare is if the US deny you your right to lose. Like Vietnam.

Re: Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

#97

Post by eyelidlessness »

readonthegoapp wrote: post #78
winrid wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's peobably worth noting Doenitz still spent 10 years in prison for crimes against peace. He didn't get out early because he wouldn't denounce his allegiance to Hitler, either.

you are saying that US military leaders should have served time too?

I can’t say whether they should have, but I can say that part of the reason international law is a joke among friends is that it was designed such that this would be the question.

The US committed atrocities in the war, and it also took extreme measures in the war which shouldn’t be judged as harshly. But we don’t have a meaningful framework to reconcile those because reconciling them is intentionally excluded from the framework.

Re: Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

#98

Post by hef19898 »

refurb wrote: post #57
jmyeet wrote: post #51

The Nuremberg Trials weren't perfect. One notable example was Albert Speer, Hitler's Architect and part of his inner circle who got away with a 20 year sentence (before moving to London where he died years later) by claiming to not know anything about the Final Solution. He got away with this by basically being a "gentleman" without their being a smoking gun. It was a classic "he's one of us". But Nuremberg was very…

But Nuremberg was very successful in de-Nazifying the country. Denazification was an entirely different process. The Nuremberg trials were for the very top leaders (and only a handful). The apparatus of the Nazi government never went to trial, they went through a Denazification process that was abandoned pretty quickly. There are numerous examples of relatively high level Nazi's being a part of the new German governm…

Stalin once proposed during one of the Allied conferences to take and execute 50,000 German officers after the war. Since the Nazis kept detailed documentation about who did what, I think one could have easily found 50,000 SS and Wehrmacht members that committed war crimes severe enough to do so. Part of me thinks that should have happened, way to many Nazi scumbags got away to hold positions of power in the BRD.

Re: Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

#99

Post by eyelidlessness »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #35
readonthegoapp wrote: post #27

from the home page of the archive: > The IMT contributed to the definition of war crimes and the outlawing of wars of aggression. that hints at what really happened at the tribunal. chomsky has some details: https://chomsky.info/20070803/ The Nuremberg case is a very interesting precedent. First of all, the Nuremberg trials—of all the tribunals that have taken place, from then until today—it is, I think, the most ser…

Chomsky has proven to be a rather biased observer in the "yeahbutwhatabout" game. Which is saying something, considering his ethnic heritage and the fact that we're talking about Nazis. If he and Kissinger were on fire and I only had one glass of water, I'd drink it.

You’re being downvoted, but I’ll say this as someone who would be on Chomsky’s side if he bothered to even be on his own damn side… yeah, I’d drink the water too.

Re: Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

#100

Post by hef19898 »

cyberax wrote: post #56
ed25519FUUU wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazing what you can accomplish by threatening someone’s livelihood in the middle of a pandemic. No coercion at all, right?

If you want to endanger others, why not? What next, road speed limits as a tool of oppression?

If you aks some people in Germany, the answer can be an absolute yes...
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