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Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

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Re: Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

#101

Post by eyelidlessness »

rightbyte wrote: post #96
CamperBob2 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to derail the thread by getting into that; you can ask people from Ukraine to Cambodia to Indonesia to Latin America about the real-world effects of his brand of realpolitik . He's a big fan of placating dictators and invaders by ceding other peoples' territory to them.

Not being a warmonger is a bad thing? The real nightmare is if the US deny you your right to lose. Like Vietnam.

He was very much a warmonger, he just favored fomenting war by parties which might be inclined to fight.

Re: Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

#102

Post by matheusmoreira »

vkou wrote: post #69
goodSteveramos wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who plead guilty and pledged loyalty to the new government were given light sentences. People who plead innocent were executed. The results could hardly be called inexplicable.

Incorrect. Most of them weren't even tried . And of those that were, most of the ones who fought the charges weren't convicted, or were convicted of far lesser charges. Only a few got death sentences. ... For instance, the industrialists that bankrolled the Nazis, ran their factories with slave labour, and made posion gas for exterminating Jews and other victims of fascism got 2 to 7 years, with most of them being ac…

You do remember that Germany's humiliation at Versailles was a major factor leading up to WWII, right?

Are you absolutely sure you need to humiliate a nation even after you achieved total military victory?

Re: Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

#103

Post by hef19898 »

rajin444 wrote: post #42
sillywalk wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention all the major powers had committed similar atrocities in their own pasts, and they all were racing to collect Nazi/Japanese scientists.

Weren't they in the process of committing some as these trials were ongoing? I don't think there's a reliable number, but certainly 6 figure and likely 7 figure death tolls for ethnic Germans due to postwar resettlements etc.

[flagged]

Re: Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

#104

Post by hef19898 »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #102
vkou wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incorrect. Most of them weren't even tried . And of those that were, most of the ones who fought the charges weren't convicted, or were convicted of far lesser charges. Only a few got death sentences. ... For instance, the industrialists that bankrolled the Nazis, ran their factories with slave labour, and made posion gas for exterminating Jews and other victims of fascism got 2 to 7 years, with most of them being ac…

You do remember that Germany's humiliation at Versailles was a major factor leading up to WWII, right? Are you absolutely sure you need to humiliate a nation even after you achieved total military victory?

Versaille played a role, the Nazi's used, and the reparations, for propaganda. WW1 and WW2 were different so, as in WW1 a lot less genozide happened. What was very convinient for both, Allies and Axis, was the coming cold war. It allowed them to quickly forego the necessary clean-up work of Germany, an ugly and lengthy thing, and just go and use former Nazis to continue the "good fight against Communism".

That the Allies choose the Marshall over the Morgenthau plan was a good call so, even if the former would have worked as well including a complete purge of Nazis from Germany.

Re: Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

#105

Post by hef19898 »

gumballindie wrote: post #64
bloomingeek wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is so true, we humans are the worst. Those who may hate CRT here in the states about slavery are really going to be upset when the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan discussions filter down to the state political levels.

Wait until you learn about european politics - decades away from CRT. At least the US is having an active debate about it.

European colonization ended in the 1950s to 1960s, and it is seen as something bad. A full analysis will propably have to wait until the last colonial "masters" died of old age... And yes, how the colonies were treated has to be properly addressed. I do have the impression so, that all but the most die hard nationalists actually agree that colonialism was a bad thing.

Slavery in the US ended in the 19th century.

Re: Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

#106

Post by hef19898 »

hackandthink wrote: post #92

The Nazis and german soldiers killed many million people. How many were accused in Nuremberg: International Military Tribunal: 24 accused Nuremberg Military Tribunals (12 trials): 185 accused

I agree that nowhere near enough Nazi war criminals were tried, after all there were records proofing whom those were.

Using that fact to what, discredit the Nürnberg trials is disengenious. Because a) they included all allies and actually tried to prosecute (the equivilant in Japan was already much more influenced by the looming Cold War) and b) a lot more, albeit still not enough, war criminals were tried in other places than Nürnberg.

Re: Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

#107

Post by oneshtein »

boppo1 wrote: post #74
rajin444 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weren't they in the process of committing some as these trials were ongoing? I don't think there's a reliable number, but certainly 6 figure and likely 7 figure death tolls for ethnic Germans due to postwar resettlements etc.

This sounds sorta lost-cause-y. 1,000,000 civilians killed in postwar orchestrations?

11 millions were killed and 25 millions were starved to death by Soviets prior to the war. ("Svoboda" Oct 04 1941 [0]).

0: http://web.archive.org/web/20160709210523/https://www.svobod...

Re: Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

#108

Post by skhr0680 »

doctor_eval wrote: post #60
refurb wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It questions the commonly held belief that the Allies wanted to avoid the war at all costs but were forced into action by Adolf Hitler's aggression. It consists largely of official government transcripts, newspaper articles, and other documents from the time, with Baker only occasionally interjecting commentary. Baker cites documents that suggest that the leaders of the United States and the United Kingdom were prov…

I honestly thought it was well known that the US in particular wanted a war with Japan but domestic politics prevented outright aggression. Instead, IIRC, the US blockaded oil deliveries to Japan to the extent that the Japanese economy was within a month or so of collapsing. The Japanese - who had been invading other asian countries - were left with little choice but to attack the US to stop the blockades. My underst…

The Washington Naval Treaty was a middle finger to Japan and a massive blow to the credibility of the democratic pro-Western government.

Re: Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

#109

Post by skhr0680 »

DirectorKrennic wrote: post #43
NoRelToEmber wrote: post #19

They had also accepted Soviet insistence that only Axis aggression was covered by the new court - otherwise the Soviet authorities would have been in the dock as well for carving up Poland in 1939 and attacking Finland three months later. - http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/november/20...

Other interesting parts. > Everyone in the court was issued with headphones to allow them to hear the charges being read in their native language, but the accused showed little interest. They were probably already resigned to the idea that they would be executed and thought there was little point in trying to pay attention and defend themselves. Most of them wished they were already dead. > The British Government wan…

The British were also strongly in favor of accepting a German surrender then immediately attacking the Soviets

Re: Archive of the Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, 1945-46

#110

Post by sorokod »

eschulz wrote: post #10

The Nuremberg Trials were fascinating. While I think many of the individuals leading the tribunal were trying to do a good job in the tradition of their respective nations' legal frameworks, the victorious allies could really not see eye to eye on what was a fair measure of retribution, rehabilitation, deterrence, etc. So my take is that largely all legal norms were discarded or violated, and the tribunal had to reac…

"So my take is that largely all legal norms were discarded or violated"

Could you give some examples?

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