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Tomb Raider

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Re: Tomb Raider

#31

Post by pavlov »

bboygravity wrote: post #29
Apocryphon wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have absolute no interest in any of the new Tomb Raider games nor the franchise in general other than as a retro curio, but that decision seems little more controversial than say, recasting James Bond. It’s far from the only case of developers doubling down on a rebooted character redesign. Kratos didn’t get a physical image shift but isn’t he like a responsible dad now or something?

Recasting Lara Croft is more like recasting Duke Nukem into a skinny woke guy. Makes no sense IMO.

The article touches on this topic. Why should Lara Croft be changed towards a more realistic female shape when pseudo-Schwarzeneggers abound in games?

’On the other hand, the same male gamers had for years been seeing images of almost equally unattainable masculine perfection on their screens, all bulging biceps and chiseled abs. How was this different? Many sensed that it was different, somehow, but few could articulate why. Michelle Goulet of the website Game Girlz perhaps said it best: Lara was “the man’s ideal image of a girl, not a girl’s ideal image of a girl.” The inverse was not true of all those warrior hunks: they were “based on the body image that is ideal to a lot of guys, not girls. They are nowhere near my ideal man.” The male gaze, that is to say, was the arbiter in both cases.’

Re: Tomb Raider

#32

Post by cubefox »

bboygravity wrote: post #29
Apocryphon wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have absolute no interest in any of the new Tomb Raider games nor the franchise in general other than as a retro curio, but that decision seems little more controversial than say, recasting James Bond. It’s far from the only case of developers doubling down on a rebooted character redesign. Kratos didn’t get a physical image shift but isn’t he like a responsible dad now or something?

Recasting Lara Croft is more like recasting Duke Nukem into a skinny woke guy. Makes no sense IMO.

Duke Nukem is a good example. He also had somewhat exaggerated proportions, but it suited him, because his face didn't look realistic either. Just like Lara, who also had a slight comic-like look. It's absurd to imply (like Michelle Goulet in the article) that having female characters with exaggerated proportions automatically means "disrespecting" woman. She also says that designers may "throw in all the sexuality you want" while insisting at the same time that characters must always retain realistic proportions. Impressive double think.

Anyway, the meme that boys at the time commonly viewed Lara Croft as "sex object" is absurd. We did not. Sorry to say it like that, but that's just some feminists like Goulet being a bit paranoid. Boys would have fantasized about someone like Jennifer Lopez, not Lara Croft.

Re: Tomb Raider

#33

Post by neffo »

cubefox wrote: post #28
Apocryphon wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have absolute no interest in any of the new Tomb Raider games nor the franchise in general other than as a retro curio, but that decision seems little more controversial than say, recasting James Bond. It’s far from the only case of developers doubling down on a rebooted character redesign. Kratos didn’t get a physical image shift but isn’t he like a responsible dad now or something?

Bond had to be recasted, there was no physical way around it. But recasting Lara Croft is as unnecessary as recasting Homer Simpson.

The character is mo-capped, you can't really maintain that consistency (which tbh, which I'm not sure existed to begin with) if you want to minimise jank in the character's facial animations.

Re: Tomb Raider

#34

Post by FredPret »

pavlov wrote: post #31
bboygravity wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recasting Lara Croft is more like recasting Duke Nukem into a skinny woke guy. Makes no sense IMO.

The article touches on this topic. Why should Lara Croft be changed towards a more realistic female shape when pseudo-Schwarzeneggers abound in games? ’On the other hand, the same male gamers had for years been seeing images of almost equally unattainable masculine perfection on their screens, all bulging biceps and chiseled abs. How was this different? Many sensed that it was different, somehow, but few could articu…

Nowadays there are more women in gaming, but when Lara Croft first appeared, it would have been odd to expect anything but a male gaze from a popluation of nearly 100% male developers and customers.

Re: Tomb Raider

#35

Post by jmorenoamor »

For those who played Tomb Raider when it was released, you know it was a hit because the game was great, movement was smooth and the sense of freedom felt amazing.

Lara as a sex symbol was the cherry on top and free marketing for the game, all the media talked about the game and made more or less obvious jokes about Lara's chest (90s jokes, you know).

Re: Tomb Raider

#36

Post by cubefox »

pavlov wrote: post #31
bboygravity wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recasting Lara Croft is more like recasting Duke Nukem into a skinny woke guy. Makes no sense IMO.

The article touches on this topic. Why should Lara Croft be changed towards a more realistic female shape when pseudo-Schwarzeneggers abound in games? ’On the other hand, the same male gamers had for years been seeing images of almost equally unattainable masculine perfection on their screens, all bulging biceps and chiseled abs. How was this different? Many sensed that it was different, somehow, but few could articu…

Yeah, that argument is simply misguided. It's like me demanding, as a man, to change male characters in Sailor Moon, Felicity, or 50 Shades of Grey. Those male characters behave (and sometimes look) like female fantasies of men, not like men view themselves. But that doesn't give me any right to demand changing them, after all, they are created for girls/women. I'm not the intended recipient!

For the same reason it is absurd for feminists like Goulet to demand changing Lara Croft. Those feminists weren't in the main audience in the first place. They could have ignored Tomb Raider like most guys ignored Sailor Moon.

Re: Tomb Raider

#37

Post by rkachowski »

cubefox wrote: post #24

My problem with the Tomb Raider design is that they swapped out Lara Croft for someone else. Lara used to have the same consistent design till Tomb Raider 6 (The Angel of Darkness). Her iconic face, known from countless magazine covers, posters, ads, and even music videos (in German speaking countries she appeared in a Die Ärzte music video which topped the charts for weeks [1]). Her trade mark braid hair style, too.…

> Or as if Capcom had decided, for Metal Gear Solid 3, to swap out Solid Snake for some other guy with the same name.

I can't tell if you are trolling here, but MGS is made by Konami and that is literally what happens in MGS3

Re: Tomb Raider

#38

Post by cubefox »

FredPret wrote: post #34
pavlov wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article touches on this topic. Why should Lara Croft be changed towards a more realistic female shape when pseudo-Schwarzeneggers abound in games? ’On the other hand, the same male gamers had for years been seeing images of almost equally unattainable masculine perfection on their screens, all bulging biceps and chiseled abs. How was this different? Many sensed that it was different, somehow, but few could articu…

Nowadays there are more women in gaming, but when Lara Croft first appeared, it would have been odd to expect anything but a male gaze from a popluation of nearly 100% male developers and customers.

And "male gaze" wasn't a deciding factor anyway. Lara Croft wasn't even viewed as a sex object like some singers or actresses.

Re: Tomb Raider

#39

Post by neffo »

jimbob45 wrote: post #19
Animats wrote: post #2

Well, it made Angelina Jolie a superstar. Few remember her films before Tomb Raider. Who sees "Gia" or "Pushing Tin" any more?

The TR movie completed the cycle of movie to movie. Tomb Raider the game was just a gender-swapped Raiders of the Lost Ark. The movie translated that back into movie form.

The first of the rebooted series is more of a gender-swapped Rick Dangerous. (Lots of deaths.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddj8zZXmFl4

Re: Tomb Raider

#40

Post by IshKebab »

> But how many copies of Tomb Raider do you think they’d have sold if they’d made Lara Croft flat-chested?

Probably lots? It helped with publicity for sure, so they would have sold fewer but it was successful because it was a great game, not because of triangular boobs.

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