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Global fertility has collapsed, with profound economic consequences

economist.com

221–230 of 273 posts

Re: Global fertility has collapsed, with profound economic consequences

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the answer is the opposite. Consumption of resources is proportional to standard of living: it takes resources to make the most modern lifestyle available. The demographic collapse, however, is evident in highly industrialized societies like Korea, while backwards regions with a low standard of living still have high birthrates. Subsaharan Africa, for example, consumes less than Korea per capita but has a hig…

>Consumption of resources is proportional to standard of living It's not and you know this. It's at best correlated. The resources have to be used effectively, and right now they're definitely not. My quality of life does not go up because using up more resources instead of living sustainably.

Higher living standards are directly correlated with higher energy and resource consumption.

Unless you're living in a far distant village or in the middle of the woods producing everything you use, you're using an immense amount of resources in your everyday life.

Recycling, not buying the latest tech and curbing your diet don't make any significant dent into the amount of resources you're indirectly consuming by simply living and being active in a well-off, first-word or even "second-world" society.

Re: Global fertility has collapsed, with profound economic consequences

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the material standard of living has been dropping and it's now getting to the point where people can't afford shelter any more and thus no more kids. CA's birthrate has already plummeted to a level lower than in the great depression several years ago. What i don't get is why decreasing fertility is always presented so negatively in the media. falling fertility is a huge blessing in the long run. we can't keep growing…

Because the population decline isn’t evenly distributed, it’s happening as the article points out, to rich people. Who of course complain the problem is that they simply don’t have enough money and that’s why they don’t have more kids.

So those millions of young people in developed wealthy countries who can't afford their own place to live are rich?

Please explain

Re: Global fertility has collapsed, with profound economic consequences

#223
post #92

As the article points out, having a choice, and not being pressured by society into having kids one doesn't want, certainly is a good thing. On the other hand, as the article notes: > [...] cannot afford to have more children, or because of other policy failures, such as housing shortages [...] the financial aspect is a huge blocker for those who want to have children. We live in a world where the majority of young p…

Not having children at any particular level of "poverty" is still a choice. African women have >4 children in conditions that makes a food stamp life look like king's.

This is for a very different reason. It's about mortality rate before reaching adolescence.

Re: Global fertility has collapsed, with profound economic consequences

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those economic explanations are searching for keys under the lamp post. As Tanner Greer notes[1]: > Structurally the arguments in both countries go like “life is so hard, and things generally so depressing, that I have no desire to bring children into the world.” > In both cases generations previous, who lived through events far more harrowing and whose material circumstances were far worse, did not express similar b…

> And no, it's not entirely about low-education traditionalist groups, certainly not in Israel. Yes it is, Israel’s high fertility rate is driven by tribes that either explicitly or implicitly influence how many children they want by restricting their financial independence. Same story with all the other countries you listed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel > The ethnic group with highest recorde…

What motivates people to provide sources that refute their own argument? The Bedouin (Muslim), Google says, make up 200,000-250,000 out of Israel's 9,3 million people. Or as your source puts it:

> Of Israel’s population of 9.5m, Israeli Arabs, mostly Muslim, make up about 21% of the total, while Jews account for roughly 74%.

> Though Haredim are just 13% of the population, their offspring make up 19% of Israeli children under the age of 14, and 24% of those under the age of four.

So the majority of modern Israeli population are Jews, mainly secular and moderately religious (61%). It seems most children there also belong to those categories, although somewhat less than their parents' population share. And as stated in the headline, Muslims are in decline and have already converged to the average national rate. So there is strictly no way for Israel's fertility rate to be driven only by traditionalist minorities. They explain the increase.

> Look at the graph here of the fertility rates of different types of Jews:

I did. For convenience: https://archive.is/8FAsi/4ca20b298a776c0318c24337c475fa4dce0...

As can be seen, secular Jews are roughly at 2 children per woman and "religious" (but not Haredi) are at 4. Once again, other OECD countries are roughly between 1.0 and 1.7 and falling. And they, too, have a share of religious traditionalists.

All that said, a good article. Some interesting bits:

> If an Israeli woman has fewer than three children, she feels as if she owes everyone an explanation—or an apology.” That, at any rate, is the view of a leading Israeli demographer. When she visits London she is struck by its dearth of toy shops.

> …But it is harder to explain why secular Jewish Israelis also have more children than the norm. Most work; paid leave for Israeli parents is not especially generous. Nor is child care cheaper than in other rich places. Some argue that Jewish Israelis make more babies because they foresee a rosier future: Israel ranks among the world’s top ten countries in happiness.

> Another reason may be that the state encourages baby-making by, for instance, bankrolling fertility treatment. It subsidises in-vitro fertilisation to the tune of $150m a year. Tiny Israel has about the same number of frozen embryos as America. This may have only a slight effect on Israel’s birth rate, but it signals that the government wants its citizens to procreate.

> One more explanation may be that Israeli grandparents tend to help out more than their peers in many other rich countries. Since Israel is small and densely populated, grandma is never far away. In one survey 83% of secular Jewish mothers aged 25-39 said they were supported by their child’s grandparents, whereas only 30% of German mothers said the same. In Israel the traditional family structure is still strong. In France and Britain more than half of babies are born out of wedlock. In Israel it is under 10%.

So, no, this isn't about "tribes" restricting financial independence. This is about a modern secular society that isn't blatantly antinatalist, plus coexists with sizable non-modern groups. Perhaps we could learn something from them, on both accounts.

For more in-depth research: https://www.taubcenter.org.il/en/research/israels-exceptiona...

Re: Global fertility has collapsed, with profound economic consequences

#225
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Consumption of resources is proportional to standard of living It's not and you know this. It's at best correlated. The resources have to be used effectively, and right now they're definitely not. My quality of life does not go up because using up more resources instead of living sustainably.

Higher living standards are directly correlated with higher energy and resource consumption. Unless you're living in a far distant village or in the middle of the woods producing everything you use, you're using an immense amount of resources in your everyday life. Recycling, not buying the latest tech and curbing your diet don't make any significant dent into the amount of resources you're indirectly consuming by si…

Nah. I moved from Canada to Japan last year, and my quality of life has increased at the same time that my consumption has decreased. Correlation is not causation.

Re: Global fertility has collapsed, with profound economic consequences

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Not only do we not see those tempretures here, we stopped using Farenheit before I was born and the locals lived happily for several tens of thousands of years semi nomadically with minimal shelter requirements. You might have missed the global part of the discussion topic and of the HN forum.

>You might have missed the global part of the discussion topic and of the HN forum. Indeed, because it's a global discussion it's important to point out that the point is not globally applicable, because there are lots of areas where people indeed do need shelter to survive. Just because it's possible in some downtown with favorable external conditions doesen't make it very viable generally

It's free to walk to warmer weather.

Re: Global fertility has collapsed, with profound economic consequences

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And no, it's not entirely about low-education traditionalist groups, certainly not in Israel. Yes it is, Israel’s high fertility rate is driven by tribes that either explicitly or implicitly influence how many children they want by restricting their financial independence. Same story with all the other countries you listed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel > The ethnic group with highest recorde…

What motivates people to provide sources that refute their own argument? The Bedouin (Muslim), Google says, make up 200,000-250,000 out of Israel's 9,3 million people. Or as your source puts it: > Of Israel’s population of 9.5m, Israeli Arabs, mostly Muslim, make up about 21% of the total, while Jews account for roughly 74%. > Though Haredim are just 13% of the population, their offspring make up 19% of Israeli child…

>What motivates people to provide sources that refute their own argument?

I do not see how the data I offered does. This quote specifically seems to support my claim that tribes that "restrict" or maintain certain "expectations" of women are disproportionately responsible for pulling the fertility rate up (which is 3 compared to other countries of being less than 2).

>Though Haredim are just 13% of the population, their offspring make up 19% of Israeli children under the age of 14, and 24% of those under the age of four.

>As can be seen, secular Jews are roughly at 2 children per woman and "religious" (but not Haredi) are at 4. Once again, other OECD countries are roughly between 1.0 and 1.7 and falling. And they, too, have a share of religious traditionalists.

I agree that it is notable that secular Jews are at a higher fertility rate, but note that it is not much higher. There are 2 factors at play here, the biological costs of having children, which are immutable, and the "economic" costs of having children, which are mutable. You make a good point here:

>In one survey 83% of secular Jewish mothers aged 25-39 said they were supported by their child’s grandparents, whereas only 30% of German mothers said the same. In Israel the traditional family structure is still strong. In France and Britain more than half of babies are born out of wedlock. In Israel it is under 10%.

It takes a village to raise a baby, and it may be true that given enough familial support, a woman would be more likely to have ~2 children rather than 0 or 1 as is being seen in other developed countries that lack the familial support system for myriad reasons. However, even with familial support, I think few women would opt for 3 children, and a very small minority would opt for 4 or more.

Re: Global fertility has collapsed, with profound economic consequences

#228
post #34
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in my case, I moved to a city for more infrastructure, public transport and my job. I had absolutely no plans to raise kids there. In fact, most people I know move out of the city center to the suburbs once they have kids. I dont follow your analysis why less childbirth would automatically lead to deserted cities.

A shrinking population does eventually have to lead to smaller (or fewer) cities.

More likely - dried out husks of small cities that shrivel up and die. Look to the US rust belt as a historical indicator.

For modern times, climate change has made it impossible to insure some areas of the US (Norther CA fire country, Florida hurricane corridor, etc). Insurers are going out of business or just not paying claims.

Re: Global fertility has collapsed, with profound economic consequences

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn’t be worse than the ethical horror show we’re have today. There are people in positions of power who have created laws with the aim of forcing millions of people to bear pregnancies to term, against their will. This is just taking the coercion out of the equation.

It would absolutely be worse, I can't believe I'm reading a take like this. Automating the creation of humanity could very easily be one of the biggest steps towards creating a slave class born explicitly to fulfill labor demands. Yeah, societal pressure from various angles may nudge people in that direction today, but building technology to serve this purpose explicitly is absolutely worse.

> building technology to serve this purpose explicitly is absolutely worse

The end result of the current trends in population trees will be the collapse of many nations, and pretty much a four horsemen situation that'll follow. Supplementing the unhealthy fertility rates might help stave this off, if we're lucky, and there's no reason to believe it would create any worse of a wage slavery system than already exists. I can't imagine that it would be more dystopian than the future we're already making a beeline toward.

Re: Global fertility has collapsed, with profound economic consequences

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What motivates people to provide sources that refute their own argument? The Bedouin (Muslim), Google says, make up 200,000-250,000 out of Israel's 9,3 million people. Or as your source puts it: > Of Israel’s population of 9.5m, Israeli Arabs, mostly Muslim, make up about 21% of the total, while Jews account for roughly 74%. > Though Haredim are just 13% of the population, their offspring make up 19% of Israeli child…

>What motivates people to provide sources that refute their own argument? I do not see how the data I offered does. This quote specifically seems to support my claim that tribes that "restrict" or maintain certain "expectations" of women are disproportionately responsible for pulling the fertility rate up (which is 3 compared to other countries of being less than 2). >Though Haredim are just 13% of the population, th…

> note that it is not much higher

1,5 (or 1,2) vs 2 is a lot. It is close to 3 so confidently above replacement for the whole secular+non-Haredim religious group (reminder that nominally the US is nearly completely "religious") and very close to replacement rate for secular Jews only; they will not experience significant population contraction in the next 100 years even if left on their own. This is important in that it means they also will never run into dependency ratio problems and necessity of mass immigration to prop up the failing economy, at the current rate; they will also never experience the cultural impact of extreme geriatrization of the society (some European nations are at average age 45 and higher now). Trends are also completely different, there is no precipitous decline (in fact it looks like a slow wobble and their TFR may return to 2+). If secular Jews were their own country they'd have been doing fine, arguably better than now and clearly unlike the rest of OECD TFR-wise.

> the biological costs of having children, which are immutable, and the "economic" costs of having children, which are mutable.

While the biological costs are not trivially mutable, there is a world of difference between having a child at 21, 27 or 35. The toll childcare takes on the body ramps up rapidly with age, while the ability to provide care declines. Older people fail to function well in a sleep-deprived state. We are doing everyone and especially women a disservice by suggesting that this decision is most wise to postpone.

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