Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say • Hacker News Board

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#431

Post by matheusmoreira » Fri, Jun 02, 2023, 1:14 PM UTC

shortcake27 wrote: post #355

matheusmoreira wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? ABS doesn't take away my control, it improves my control by preventing conditions that would reduce traction. This system is always engaged by brake pedal input from my foot. It's not something that cars just do out of nowhere. The emergency braking system will automatically stop the car without your input whenever it wants. Judging from this thread, that could be due to anything. False positives have been repor…

> People should absolutely be able to turn this thing off if they don't trust it. Absolutely not. There are other people on the road. Families. You don’t get to kill other people in a preventable accident because you believe you’re an above-average human who can outperform a computer.

I literally couldn't care less how well the computer performs. I'm the human, it's my vehicle, I'm driving and I should have total command over the machine. I refuse to be dehumanized into some well-controlled variable in the name of so-called safety.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#432

Post by astura » Fri, Jun 02, 2023, 1:15 PM UTC

hnick wrote: post #369

lloeki wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a Mazda too, I can confirm GP statement regarding lane assist... in many areas but not all: - when it works it works so well the car basically drives itself esp. when you throw cruise control into the mix (this includes auto coasting + breaking) - when it doesn't it's bouncing across the lane + applies too much resistance when attempting e.g overtaking I did not have any issue with emergency braking (never tri…

> applies too much resistance when attempting e.g overtaking It doesn't turn off when you indicate to change lanes? It does on the Hyundai.

Mine does too (Volkswagen) but it's been my observation that most people don't indicate to change lanes.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#433

Post by sebzim4500 » Fri, Jun 02, 2023, 1:18 PM UTC

hedora wrote: post #117

There is a lot of concern about incorrect actuations in this thread. One way to address this is to dictate that the car AEB status prior to each accident was made known to everyone involved, and to hold the manufacturer directly liable whenever AEB contributed to a collision. After making that change, they could circulate the draft bill, and let the car manufacturer lobbyists kill it.

I don't think that car manufacturers should be held responsible just because AEB contributed to a collision. It isn't that rare for safety features to do harm in specific circumstances, for example seatbelts can prevent people leaving the car in a hurry and airbags can sometimes kill people when they activate.

The question is whether the feature is a net positive, not whether it is a positive in literally every potential collision.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#434

Post by jiveturkey » Fri, Jun 02, 2023, 1:20 PM UTC

sadly yes they are right. the implementations are sadly lacking so as a competent and always aware driver, i’ve found that 100% of the time these systems (on all levels of car, honda to mercedes) these systems do more harm than good. however your typical usa driver is quite poor, so yes these systems need to be required

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#435

Post by thomasjudge » Fri, Jun 02, 2023, 1:22 PM UTC

So in some ways it's hard to argue against new "safety" features; but on the other hand there is a cost to sprawling feature creep in cars (or software): increased complexity surface; increased failure modes; increased repair costs. How many sensors/computers are on new cars; 10 years out how many of them will start to fail/go flaky. Right now I apparently have an O2 sensor and a crankshaft position sensor failure on my vehicle; they do not seem to be impacting normal operation, but replacement of them would cost $600

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#436

Post by sebzim4500 » Fri, Jun 02, 2023, 1:22 PM UTC

CWuestefeld wrote: post #252

taeric wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that isn't a problem with numbers. That is a problem with letting your imagination run things. The scenarios and questions you ask are easy to explore in the data. If the number of crashes goes down, contrived scenarios don't really impact things. If they stay flat or go up, then you have to answer why. To emphasize, for your imagination here to be relevant, the number has to do one of those. If the number goes d…

I disagree. I've been a licensed driver for over 40 years. I had one minor fender-bender at 16 years old, learned my lesson, and haven't had another accident since. I'm an exceptionally good driver as evidenced by this, plus the fact that I've taken performance driving classes, simulators, and so forth. I, personally, am a much lower risk than the typical driver. Putting a drivers' aid device in my car may well incre…

Even if you would rather not have the feature in your car, wouldn't you rather the idiot about to hit you had it in his?

Unless you are proposing that they should require it in everyone's cars except yorus.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#437

Post by aedocw » Fri, Jun 02, 2023, 1:28 PM UTC

thomasjudge wrote: post #435

So in some ways it's hard to argue against new "safety" features; but on the other hand there is a cost to sprawling feature creep in cars (or software): increased complexity surface; increased failure modes; increased repair costs. How many sensors/computers are on new cars; 10 years out how many of them will start to fail/go flaky. Right now I apparently have an O2 sensor and a crankshaft position sensor failure on…

That o2 sensor is an important part of the engine/emissions management system. Without that info, the car computer is not able to efficiently map the fuel/air mixture and over time is likely to lead to more problems. Depending on the car, the CPS sensor could be really critical (like if you've got variable valve timing in an interference engine I think?). Understandable you want to ignore that check engine light but recognize that $600 cost to repair could balloon into a lot more (even a destroyed engine).

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#438

Post by eimrine » Fri, Jun 02, 2023, 1:29 PM UTC

sebzim4500 wrote: post #429

eimrine wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are not the only person on the road, you are creating risk for other drivers and pedestrians every time you drive. Aren't you notice, my dear safety fan, that the thing you are propagating is effectively adding one more person/actor on the road - a programmer of potentially buggy software, totally not FOSS and without any responsibility for any possible outcomes of possible bugs?

Which is why it should be monitored to ensure that the net result of the rollout is a reduction in accidents/fatalities/injuries/etc.

Your comment is very hard to disagree. But how are you going to test if there might be some interference of two changes? For example, negative effect from screen/touchscreen and positive from auto-breaking - isn't your next proposal to gather more information including video of driver's moves? I have a strong feel that an argument that the drivers must be video-streaming while moving will be equally hard to disagree.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#439

Post by yoden » Fri, Jun 02, 2023, 1:30 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #35

jacquesm wrote: post #6

This almost got me into a serious accident, twice. Definitely would not recommend and I switched cars because of it. The last thing I need is buggy software with the capability of instantly changing the trajectory of my vehicle (slippery surfaces, cornering). A brand car as well (MB) so really, really disappointed, what should have been a safety feature actually was the opposite. Dealer said everything was fine so th…

There appear to be major variations between manufacturers. I've driven many miles on a wide variety of roads in a Subaru and haven't experienced any false positive automatic braking incidents. However, the system does automatically disable itself (and warns the driver accordingly) in heavy precipitation so there is still significant room for improvement.

Amusingly a poster above indicated they had issues with multiple Subarus, and another had issues with Hondas (which is what has worked well for me).

People on this forum want it to be a technology issue, and I'm sure it is to some extent, but I think the differences between driving styles is also a large component. If you're a careful driver that usually leaves a lot of separation, many AEB implementations will rarely trigger and you'll usually understand why when it does. Whereas if you're an aggressive driver that cuts between vehicles, leaves <1 s separation, etc., you will notice a lot of "unexpected" braking from these systems. Like the poster above that was upset the system slowed them down when they were nearly clipping a car exiting the road.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#440

Post by matheusmoreira » Fri, Jun 02, 2023, 1:30 PM UTC

AlotOfReading wrote: post #334

matheusmoreira wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? ABS doesn't take away my control, it improves my control by preventing conditions that would reduce traction. This system is always engaged by brake pedal input from my foot. It's not something that cars just do out of nowhere. The emergency braking system will automatically stop the car without your input whenever it wants. Judging from this thread, that could be due to anything. False positives have been repor…

ABS improves your control in normal circumstances . There are (uncommon) circumstances where it will actually harm your ability to handle the vehicle, same as other mandatory systems like ECS and optional safety features like traction control. Some vehicles have ways to disable some or all of these safety features for control purposes. The proposed rules include false activation tests, monitoring/reporting of unneces…

Can you elaborate on that? Everything I've read about the ABS technology suggests it always improves steering and almost always reduces braking distance. Exceptions include surfaces like snow and gravel where it actually increases braking distances. If there's more to it than this, I could change my opinion on the matter: might be wise to have the option to disable in some situations.