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Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

arstechnica.com

261–270 of 512 posts

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#261
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My new car has lane keep assist and AEB and I haven't had these issues. From what I hear it's very much to do with a maker's implementation (mine is Hyundai, who for various reasons seems to have a bad reputation in North America but a good one in Australia). For the lane keep assist I feel a nudge but it's extremely easy to overcome just through a normal grip on the wheel - if I don't budge it won't move. It's been…

Hyundai had a not so great reputation in the early 2000s in the US. In recent years however this opinion seems to have shifted. Been driving an Ioniq 5 2023 for a couple months now with no phantom/emergency braking issues. I'm not in love with the performance of the lane keep without being on an HDA2 marked highway. I have to fight it just enough for it to not be useful on certain well marked backroads. Considering t…

Hyundai has been having engine failures, would not recommend as experienced spontaneous engine failure on a less than year old car. Check consumer reports or source below.

“In 2020, NHTSA announced civil penalties for the companies—totaling $210 million—for not recalling vehicles in a timely manner. In 2021, a whistleblower who provided NHTSA with information that led to those penalties was awarded $24 million, the agency’s first-ever whistleblower award.”

https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-recalls-defects/why...

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#262
post #224
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regulations that restrict people who have not caused actual harm do not, in general, reduce the amount of harm that happens. But they do work great as revenue sources for local governments (speeding laws are the most common example but not the only one), not to mention as excuses for manufacturers to charge higher prices and squeeze out more profit from consumers. They also reduce general respect for laws and regulat…

I disagree. Especially for institutions that have as much easy to look at data as this. Total wrecks is easy to track. And if it is going down, regulation to help is working. Paranoia on overreach is fine. Good, even. That is best approached by auditing and running the stats. Constantly. But to claim that this is a meaningful restriction feels wrong on many levels. That said, if you are going to assert some of these…

> to claim that this is a meaningful restriction feels wrong on many levels.

You must be joking. Requiring me to have a technology in my car that can apply the brakes without any input from me and without warning? That is most definitely a meaningful restriction. You're forcing me to trust the government's estimate of the relative risk vs. benefit. To be blunt, the government sucks compared to me at estimating my relative risk and benefit. Plus, government institutions have repeatedly shown that they will lie to me about such things to serve political ends. So no, not buying it.

> I'm restricted such that I have to wear seatbelts. I can't buy a new car without rear view camera. I can't buy a new car without antilock brakes. Headlights. Brake lights. I could go for a long time on this list. Are you claiming none of those make driving safer?

The question is not whether these things make driving safer as compared to not having them.

The question is whether the government regulations we have, which include requiring these things but also include lots of other regulations that have far worse justifications (if they even have justifications at all and aren't just blatant attempts to extort the public, such as speed traps), are a better system, on net, than a system in which such things were a matter of voluntary choice, but we forced people to bear the consequences of their bad choices. Oh, you weren't wearing a seat belt and you got in an accident? Sorry, your insurance company will not cover the medical costs due to injuries you suffered that the seat belt would have prevented (or you have a much higher deductible in such a case). Oh, you hit something while backing up and you didn't put a rear view camera in your car? Same sort of answer from your insurance company. Oh, you hit something because you didn't have anti-lock brakes and so you couldn't steer to avoid the collision? Same answer.

In other words, if it is in fact true that these various technologies reduce the risk of accidents, then people who know they will have to take the consequences if they cause an accident will use these technologies to reduce that risk. But in our present regime, our society appears to be violently allergic to such things. The very existence of no fault auto insurance, for example, indicates that we don't like the idea of having to take the consequences of bad choices--but the result is that everyone pays more for auto insurance (IIRC, average rates in no fault states are about twice what they are in states that don't have no fault).

We would all be better off if we abandoned the idea that government regulation can magically protect people from bad consequences. We would also all be better off if we abandoned the idea that we can somehow magically have a government that only makes good regulations, and accepted the inconvenient truth that government regulations come as a package, which even if it contains some good regulations contains many more bad ones, and all things considered is a net cost to us all, not a net gain. We need to stop depending on the nanny state to protect us and be responsible adults who are capable of judging risks and acting accordingly.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#263
post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lane-keeping should only be active with cruise control active. You shouldn't be using it in city traffic, ever.

Automatic lane-keeping assist is generally turned on at all times with modern cars.

It’s not in either 2023 model year vehicle I own, but I have seen it on full time in another. But I have never seen it active below speeds of about 35mph (i.e. most city driving)

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#264
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true of basically any change isn't it? Even seat belts conceivably could result in some very small increase in the chance of death as a result of it being harder to escape a vehicle. Obviously the benefits far outweigh the risk, but then we are just arguing over where to draw the line.

I think you missed their point. It's not that most situations are improved and some get worse, it's that those situations might be unevenly distributed among drivers. A seat belt is basically the same for everyone. It makes things safer when you look at all drivers, and it makes things safer for just about any subgroup of drivers. But a buggy AEB might not fit that pattern. Imagine a system that reduces crashes by ha…

> it's that those situations might be unevenly distributed among drivers.

I think that may be true in all cases - for example seat belts and airbags requirements may affect people differently depending on height and weight?

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#265
post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Consensus appears to be 300-400k people saved since 1975. I don't see where that number is given in the article you referenced. In any case, I didn't ask for a number, I asked for a percentage of people who didn't wear seat belts who suffered or caused harm because of it.

> I don't see where that number is given in the article you referenced. It's not hard to find. https://www.bankrate.com/insurance/car/seat-belt-statistics/ is an example claiming 329,715. > In any case, I didn't ask for a number, I asked for a percentage of people who didn't wear seat belts who suffered or caused harm because of it. Yes, I did notice that, and the not so subtle sleight of hand involved in it.

> the not so subtle sleight of hand

If you think that was sleight of hand, we obviously have very different attitudes about risk and regulation and we probably won't be able to have a productive discussion.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#266

I see a lot of comments in there in the lines of "it almost caused an accident!". Yeah, my AEB has misfired too, often when coming around a curve and it thinks I'm about to have a head on collision with the oncoming traffic even though we are both turning. Or when making u-turns with a car in front of me. But it's never caused me to get hit. And more importantly, if the other cars around me also had AEB, then they to…

But how long do we have to wait for everyone around us to get AEB? 20 years? 30 years?

In meantime, every time it misfires, we’re risking an accident. Yes, it’s an accident caused by the poor following distance of the car behind us, but the blame isn’t much of a consolation when there’s no guarantee you can walk away from the crash without an injury.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#267
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The car industry fought seatbelts and airbags. https://www.nytimes.com/1975/04/06/archives/industry-resists... Your claims about widespread voluntary adoption appear false. https://www.history.com/news/seat-belt-laws-resistance > At the time, only 14 percent of Americans regularly wore seat belts, even though the federal government required lap and shoulder belts in all new cars starting in 1968.

What percentage of Americans who did not wear seat belts suffered or caused harm because of it?

Emergency services and social costs of crashes are immense.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#268
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with numbers is that they don't tell the whole story. I can easily imagine a scenario where it might prevent 25000 crashes a year that are caused because 5% of drivers are staring at their phones, have a high chance of rear-ending someone, and this software makes that far less likely. While also containing bugs causing 1000 crashes a year for the larger number of non-distracted drivers, resulting in a net…

No, that isn't a problem with numbers. That is a problem with letting your imagination run things. The scenarios and questions you ask are easy to explore in the data. If the number of crashes goes down, contrived scenarios don't really impact things. If they stay flat or go up, then you have to answer why. To emphasize, for your imagination here to be relevant, the number has to do one of those. If the number goes d…

> The scenarios and questions you ask are easy to explore in the data.

This sounds like the beginnings of the McNamara fallacy: that there is some abstract "data" where all the relevant variables can be explored to decide the best course of action. The reason it's a fallacy is that data is itself only a reflection of conscientious decisions about what to measure and how to measure, and these are invariably limited to what we already appreciate and understand, not accounting for the things we don't know how to measure and don't know we should be measuring.

To be more concrete, let's say we follow your suggestion and focus on crashes. Maybe it's found that automatic breaking reduces the number of crashes so it's mandated. But maybe automatic breaking also increases the likelihood that a crash is deadly in some sub-population like pedestrians, construction workers, and motorcyclists. So overall we see crashes decline because a large number of minor crashes are averted but we also see deadly crashes increase because pedestrians, construction workers, and motorcyclists are killed more frequently.

So data isn't a free lunch. Every decision about what to measure and what to optimize involves some prior contextual understanding. A misunderstanding of the context means the data will misrepresent some aspect of the problem and you'll overoptimize yourself into a local maximum.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Joebob’s car insurance premiums and taxes cover others’ car crashes. He is statistically impacted even if he’s a recluse without a car at all. (He might even be statistically more likely to run into the car he’s not used to seeing on the usually empty road via the stop sign he usually blows right through. Who knows?)

> (He might even be statistically more likely to run into the car he’s not used to seeing on the usually empty road via the stop sign he usually blows right through. Who knows?) That's not how statistics work. Again, statistics mean little to the individual.

“You are statistically more likely to die prematurely and painfully if you eat polonium” sure matters to individuals who eat polonium.

I don’t think you’re clear on the definition of “statistically”.

Re: Automatic emergency braking should become mandatory, feds say

#270
post #257

Most of the comments in favour of this technology seem to be "It saved me from rear-ending someone because I wasn't concentrating". On the other hand comments against this technology are essentially "It had a false positive and almost killed me". As I'm capable of maintaining good following distance, riding to the conditions, braking correctly, and being aware of the traffic around me; I'll choose not to use this tec…

> I'll choose not to use this technology, thanks. Roads are public. I have been rear-ended by another driver in a completely unavoidable situation (for me -- the other driver should've been paying attention; I saw the collision coming and honked but had nowhere to go). I've also been in an accident as a passenger in a Uber. My Uber driver rear ended someone. I screamed at him twice but by the time he reacted it was t…

Sorry to hear about the accidents. One part makes me wondr (tangential to your stories). Has honking really ever prevented any accidents? I don't even know why a car needs a horn, 99% it's abused out of frustration, and I cannot Eben imagine what that magic 1% situation is that requires car to have a horn. Honest question.
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